New to reloading

A place to discuss calibers, ammunition, and reloading

Re: New to reloading

Postby EJSG19 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:00 pm

Bessy wrote:
EJSG19 wrote:Fire in the hole! :hide:


I'm just asking a question, I realize Sam has been around for a while, he probably has good reason for thinking the way he does, I'm curious to what that is. The poke at his age is to aggravate him enough to actually answer the question rather than going to back to watching matlock... and falling asleep in the recliner.


Understood. If you think poking fun at somebody who's motto is "Anything smaller than .50 caliber isn't worth my time" is a good idea, you go right ahead!

Well, actually I hear .338 works ok too. You might be in range... be careful. :bolt:
EJSG19


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Re: New to reloading

Postby ex-LT on Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:09 pm

DeanC wrote:It used to be $25, but since that long-legged, purple-lipped devil from Chicago got into office, inflation has hit: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?p ... ber=480380

(I have one and yes, it actually works.)

It's still available for less than $30.
You just have to know where to look.
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Re: New to reloading

Postby ScatterGun4015 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:20 pm

Wow.....Thanks everyone for your input. The reason I wanted to start with this press is because the turret press can be disabled and turned into a single stage for when I start out. Out of all the brands I compared this seemed like the best to begin with and eventually advance with. I am read here on quite a few posts that having 2 or more reloading books is the best start......and thats what I am planning on starting with. I was planning on asking santa for the press and dies for Christmas. I don't know if I will get it but I am hoping for it. My plan is to reload some blasting ammo for my 9mm. I sold my 45xd so for pistol 9mm is all I need. I may eventually work into 30-06, 30-30, and .270win. I do have one more question( I'm sure it won't be my last) but how many times can you re-use the same brass. I have been told 3-5 times depending on the damage to the casing. Once I actually get my press I will be looking for a mentor in the metro area (I live in No. St. Paul about 1.5 blocks away from where our Police Officer was murdered RIP). I know that Bullseye shooter supply in Lake Elmo gives classes for reloading so that is where I might start out. Thanks again for all the input......this is the only forum i belong to, gun related or not, that i feel more like a part of the family

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Re: New to reloading

Postby Seismic Sam on Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:00 pm

Alright, here goes my rant on electronic scales, and as a chemist I have used a variety of electronic balances for 34 years at 3M that were capable of weight precisions from 0.1 gram (1 decimal place) to .0001 grams (4 decimal places).

ALL of the reloading balances have a FUNDAMENTAL disconnect in grams versus grains accuracy, with the balances SUPPOSEDLY being good to 1/100th of a gram (2 decimal places) or 1/10th of a grain (1 decimal place). Well, people, that isn't mathematically possible. 1 gram equals 15.43 grains, so .1 gram equals 1.543 grains. and .01 gram equals .154 grains. So essentially, .01 gram is NOT equal to .1 grain, but instead .15 grain, which is 50% more than the rated accuracy of the scale. To get to true .1 grain accuracy, a scale would have to at least be accurate to .005 grams, or 2 1/2 decimal places, and there are NO electronic powder scales out there with this specification. So the spec of .01 gram / .1 grain is fundamentally flawed to begin with.

Now let's get into the fact that your are working with a digital versus analog scale. Beam balances that measure to .1 grain actually can be observed in their swinging back and forth to be dead nuts on the money, or a little high or low, or a full .1 grain off if you move the small counterweight, so if you push the envelope you can discern .05 grain differences if you want to. A digital balance, however, reads to .1 grains only, and as noted above it's doubtful if it's really capable of .1 grain accuracy instead of .15 grain accuracy.

Now, there are two situations that can occur with digital equipment, and these will be treated seperately, and for both of these we will assume that these balances are only capable of .15 grain accuracy, whic in my judgement is the actual case.

Situation #1: The "TRUE" weight is between two digital values that read .1 grain apart, but in reality this difference is .15 grains. The scale will fluctuate back and forth regularly between these two values, and if you know what you are looking at after using digital scales for 30+ years, you will realize that the actual weight is the average of the two values. So IF you know this, you can get the weight dead on by interpolating, but most of you will pick one of the points over the other, so you will be .075 grains off of the true weight, and you won't know if your number is high or low. This is the GOOD situation.

Situation #2: The "TRUE" weight is close to a single value, but it fluctuates up and down .1 grain while you are watching it. Cutting through the math, your accuracy is +/- .15 grains, so your total fluctuation is .3 grains on any given charge. In a max load situation, a .3 grain fluctuation with 231 or Bullseye is just plain unacceptable. If your load data is based on a low side digital benchmark, that scale could be weighing out a charge a full .3 grains higher than you think in some cases, which could get you hurt.

Now, if that isn't bad enough just based on the disconnect between .01 grams and .1 grains, plus the uncertainty of going from an analog measurement which you can observe quite closely, to a digital measurement where you have no idea what the microprocessor in the scale is actually doing with the data it is receiving, in reality the situation is far worse in real life. These scales are dreadfully suceptible to:

1. Temperature
2. Drafts
3. Electromagnetic interference, with the #1 culprit being flourescent lights.

All three of these can drive a cheap electronic scale absolutely bonkers, and you actually have to get on into a basement setting with flourescent lights and drafts (which would be common for most reloading locations) to watch what happens.

Finally, add to that that that your POWDER MEASURE may not be dropping the exact same weight every time, and couple that with the drafts and the lighting and the digital variations of a scale that can only discern .15 grain differences, and you have a total measurement clusterphque. You will be lucky if 1 in 4 of your digital weights are actually the right number.

I actually have a rather nice Mettler .001 gram three place balance that is quite stable and has the weighing pan shielded from drafts and the electronics are also shielded, and if you want to bring one of your cheap little plastic, unshielded balances out we can throw 50 charges of something like Retumbo or Herco where you will get packing variations, and then weigh the powder charges with both scales. I can guarantee you, the comparison will be uglier that me and HammAR put together. Seeing as I do load development work where I increase powder charges in .1 grain increments with a beam scale where I can tell if the charge is .05 grains high or low, going to a digital scale which could be off by .2 - .3 grains is simply not an option. My velocity data would be garbage, and there would be no point in loading up cartridges in the first place.
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Re: New to reloading

Postby Pat Cannon on Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:05 pm

This is making me think maybe my Lee Safety Scale is not so bad after all.
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Re: New to reloading

Postby Bessy on Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:20 pm

Thank you for answering my question so completely sam. This has really peaked my interest. I appreciate your time. My manual does indeed specify .01 gram accuracy....
When I have some time I will throw some powder and compare them from the digital and the gravity scale. This is very intriguing... but I kind of already knew some of this. When the scale says accurate to within .1 grains... to me that means +/- .1 grain. So if the scale reads 5.1 grains it can be anywhere between 5.0 and 5.2. To anyone who as worked in a lab before this is pretty obvious.. to the lay person it might not be. However with what you suggest the variation could be as high as .3 grains. Drafts shouldn't be a problem were I am at and my scale has a shield, I've got the voltage regulation taken care of, but I do have florescent lighting.. Thanks again for the excellent info.
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Re: New to reloading

Postby westberg on Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:26 am

Somebody with more time then I have should put all of SS words of wisdom as a reference section under reloading.
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Re: New to reloading

Postby goalie on Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:10 am

I was going to make some smarmy comment about my Denver Instruments scale being just fine, then I read SS's post and realized two things:

1. I used it to weigh and separate cases and bullets, NOT powder charges.
2. I am really glad I only weighed cases and bullets with it.
It turns out that what you have is less important than what you do with it.
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Re: New to reloading

Postby Seismic Sam on Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:39 am

Actually, seeing as I am retired and have time on my hands and a Cabela's digital scale warming up in my slightly drafty, flourescent lit basement, I am going to get out my three place Mettler balance and see what kind of data I generate. Stay tuned for some data which will probably make me and HammAR look BETTER than any of Tiger's mistresses...
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