45-70 Lead vs. Jacketed

[GregM]

Four questions about the 45-70 loads shown on the Hodgdon website:

1. Under trapdoor rifles the loads shown for jacketed bullets are much higher than the loads for lead bullets. Why?

2. Under lever action and modern rifles there are no loads shown for lead bullets. Why not?

3. I have a Marlin 1895 45-70. I don't hunt --- I just shoot at paper. Is it safe to shoot lead bullets through this rifle?

4. If it is safe to use lead, should I use the loads shown for trapdoor rifles?

[old guy]

Lead bullets are fine in the marlin, and if it is the modern 1895 you can use all the heavy loads listed also. it is one of my favorite calibers. The reason they list the lighter for the trapdoor is because it is not as strong as the Marlin. Many shooters load hardcast 500 gr. lead to over 1500 fps as a bear stopping load in Alaska. I personaly just loaded 400 gr. jacketed to just over 1700 fps, these were not fun to shoot from the bench but sure dumped whitetail ok.

John

[cobb]

There is 3 sets of load data for the 45-70 on Hodgdon's web site. One for trapdoors, one for levers and one for modern rifles, their heaviest loads. I would stay away from the data for the modern rifles, these are Hodgdon's heaviest loads and not meant for your Marlin lever action, more for a Ruger number 1 single shot.
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
If you don't hunt with your Marlin lever 45-70, you want to shoot lead, why not just shoot the trapdoor loads? Lead or cast bullets are cheaper, the trapdoor loads will use less powder, will not beat you and your rifle up as much and will probably be very accurate on the paper your punching.

[DeanC]

Does your Marlin have micro-groove rifling? If so, I'm not sure about cast lead bullets. Check your manual.

ETA - looks like to get the best accuracy, you'll want to consider using oversize bullets. See this: Marlin's Microgroove Barrels

[cobb]

There are several cowboy action shooters that shoot lead out of their micro grooved rifles. I know a few that are always on the hunt for older rifles with the Ballard rifling because they get more leading with the Micro groove rifling and also believe it less accurate.

As far as checking the owners manual for you Marlin rifle, it will tell you that your rifle is designed to shoot factory ammunition and do not shoot handloads, so that will rule out lead, jacketed and any other bullet if it is handloaded ammunition. There is no problem of shooting lead or cast bullets in a Micro grooved rifle, except for the possible excessive leading and accuracy issue.

[plblark]

Q: ISn't one of the differences in when Lead vs Jacketed is appropriate the velocities you're pushing it to? ie: past a certain point, isn't it advised to use jacketed instead of lead? or am I misremembering it as the difference between plated and jacketed?

disclaimer: I DO NOT RELOAD. I am just starting to get interested in this and trying to collect information. This tickled my memory and I thought I'd see if it fits in here.

Paul

[EJSG19]

Q: ISn't one of the differences in when Lead vs Jacketed is appropriate the velocities you're pushing it to? ie: past a certain point, isn't it advised to use jacketed instead of lead? or am I misremembering it as the difference between plated and jacketed?

disclaimer: I DO NOT RELOAD. I am just starting to get interested in this and trying to collect information. This tickled my memory and I thought I'd see if it fits in here.

Paul

The general, and very vague rule of thumb I have taken to heart is:

Slow velocity = softer lead (hard lead at slow velocity = more leading - lead to hard to seal into the rifling, you get blowby around the bullet, melts lead, leads barrel)
High velocity = harder lead (Soft lead at high velocity = more leading - lead is too soft at the base of bullet, melts, leads barrel))
Higher velocity = jacketed bullets

If you attempt to mix and match any of that you'll be dealing with excessive leading potentially. Plated bullets are their own animal. Don't want to push those too fast either, or the plating might separate while its still inside the barrell.

Anyone is welcome to correct me on this one. I've read this several places, but seen very little scientific proof on this topic.

[Seismic Sam]

Q: ISn't one of the differences in when Lead vs Jacketed is appropriate the velocities you're pushing it to? ie: past a certain point, isn't it advised to use jacketed instead of lead? or am I misremembering it as the difference between plated and jacketed?

disclaimer: I DO NOT RELOAD. I am just starting to get interested in this and trying to collect information. This tickled my memory and I thought I'd see if it fits in here.

Paul

The general, and very vague rule of thumb I have taken to heart is:

Slow velocity = softer lead (hard lead at slow velocity = more leading - lead to hard to seal into the rifling, you get blowby around the bullet, melts lead, leads barrel)
High velocity = harder lead (Soft lead at high velocity = more leading - lead is too soft at the base of bullet, melts, leads barrel))
Higher velocity = jacketed bullets

If you attempt to mix and match any of that you'll be dealing with excessive leading potentially. Plated bullets are their own animal. Don't want to push those too fast either, or the plating might separate while its still inside the barrell.

Anyone is welcome to correct me on this one. I've read this several places, but seen very little scientific proof on this topic.

You got it right. If you compare powder charges, the charges for the cast bullets MAY be larger than the jacketed bullets for the same weight bullet, because lead slides down the barrel with less friction than a copper jacket. With less friction you can load slightly hotter to get to the same pressure, which for the 1873 trapdoor (which is the lowest common denominator) the pressure is only 18,000 PSI. This is what all factory loads are unles listed otherwise, because no ammo manufacturer will take the chance of a clueless noob stuffing a hotter round into his 1873 and blowing himself up.

[cobb]

It is a general rule that if you want to push a bullet faster, jacketed is prefered over unjacketed because of leading, but then some use a copper gass check on their lead bullets to minimize the leading. It is not just velocity that can cause leading, the harness of the lead is a factor, as is the powder used. A faster/hotter burning powder can cause excessive leading because the burning powder is actually melting the lead at the base of the bullet and that lead gets left behind in the barrel.

[GregM]

Does your Marlin have micro-groove rifling? If so, I'm not sure about cast lead bullets. Check your manual.

ETA - looks like to get the best accuracy, you'll want to consider using oversize bullets. See this: Marlin's Microgroove Barrels

Mine is brand new, so it has the deeper Ballard rifling.

[Rem700]

If this is a newer Marlin it has Ballard rifleing Marlin switched from the micro groove several years ago.
Stay away from the heaviest loads in the Marlin which most as already mentioned are intended for the Ruger #1.
For general use stay between 300-400 gr bullet weight your shoulder will thank you.
Lead bullets work great and are way cheaper then jacketed, Slug the bore and try to find bullets 1-2 thousands larger. You can also shoot gas checked bullets which help some in the leading but arnt always needed and add to the expense. I and others have had good luck with AA 5744 and is one of the more popular powders for 45/70 shooting lead.

[870TC]

The most important thing to remember when choosing to shoot a lead bullet is, Make sure its the correct size for your bore diameter.

[Rem700]

IMHO a properly fitted lead bullet is the first part of eliminateing leading.

[GregM]

If you don't hunt with your Marlin lever 45-70, you want to shoot lead, why not just shoot the trapdoor loads? Lead or cast bullets are cheaper, the trapdoor loads will use less powder, will not beat you and your rifle up as much and will probably be very accurate on the paper your punching.

Thanks! That was my line of reasoning, too, but I don't know enough about this stuff to make a decision. The manual doesn't actually say NOT to shoot handloads --- it just says "Marlin does not make any recommendations with regard to handloaded ammunition."

[Rem700]

I think just about any manufactures owners manual says not to use handloads or it voids the warranty or some such.