How often to replace defensive ammo - a story

[Shipyard]

saw the discussion come up in the deals section over some hydra-shocks, i wanted to share this with the rest of the group. This happened a year ago and by his account is true (unless the kindly old vet from the story had one too many cocktails at the VFW and dressed up the story. I happen to believe him, so there...)

I work with a dude who lives in St. Paul. His neighbor is a kind hearted wonderful vet of about 72. One night, the good old boy hears a rustling downstairs. He pulls his trusty .357 from the nightstand to investigate. In the den, he finds a crack headed gang banger of about 17 trying to make off with an armload of trasures that are priceless to him and worth about $30 on the street.

Being kind hearted, he tells the kid to put the stuff down and get the hell out. In response, the kid grabs the fire poker from the fire place and proceeds to attempt to bash the old mans head in. He fired twice, striking the kid center mass once. The ammunition in the revolver however, was fresh and new in about 1988. The bullet knocked the kid down but stopped short of going through the breast bone. Luckly, the elderly gent was able to close the gap and put pistol 6" from the perps face and hold him there until help arrived.

I don't know the full science of ammunition aging. i've heard stories of 60 year old surplus going boom every time and year old rounds going fizzle. either way, i change my defensive loads every 6 months.

if i ever have to defend my life or that of my families i damn well want to hear a boom instead of a click.

FWIW...

[Stradawhovious]

There are lots of reasons to cycle out your carry ammo.

Powder degradation, Bullet setback, Primer contamination, etc. etc. etc.

I have never witnessed any of the above first hand, but have heard accounts of contamination due to moisture and solvents. I too would rather not have an issue with my ammo when I need it to save my life. The last thing (and I mentioned this in the HST thread) I would need is for a squib due to powder issues, and then be standing there with a 2lb club because a bullet is now lodged in my barrel.

Now I'm sure that there will be many posts after this from people saying "That can't/won't happen, you dumbass!" Well, I guarantee it won't happen to me. Every 6 months, just like the man said.

[rtk]

Now I'm sure that there will be many posts after this from people saying "That can't/won't happen, you dumbass!"

It can happen and it will happen at the worst possible time. Mine usally gets cycled once a month.

IANAL
YMMV
IMHO
FWIW
GBA

[45usp45]

I cycle about once a year.
I do make sure the gun is dry from cleaning before I put it back into service.
My 45's are carrying their non preferred ammo due to being unable to acquire any.

[Joe Camo]

Well, I would say one can experience such problems with "fresh" ammo too. Also wouldn't be quick to stereotype all "old" ammo as suspect and going to let you down when you squeeze the trigger. There are WAY to many variables and unknowns with ammo in general (and this story in particular) to make any such blanket assumptions.

Yes, it is an excellent idea to cycle your defensive loads on a regular / frequent basis. If nothing else, it gets you trigger time and that in and of itself is great.

I hate to perpetrate hearsay and conjecture, but reading that the guy in the story used Hydra-shoks makes me raise an eyebrow since I seem to recall hearing reports of that particular design having penetration issues through even light layers of clothing. The reports say to the effect that the design of this round (especially early versions - 1980's??) caused clothing to collect in the nose of the hollow point cavity thus imparing proper mechanical expansion and penetration of soft tissue. The type of clothing material and # of layers varied the results. I've heard that Federal at some point changed something in the design of this round to help alleviate this issue. Sure, "bare" ballistics gel is the "gold stsndard" for testing ballistics, but how many naked perps would one really encounter?

It's been years since I've thought of this topic, so not sure if I can find the sources or links to the reports now. Hey, I have an unopened box of late '80's Hydra-shoks in 40SW, but nothing current ... If someone does I wonder if an "informal" MN Guntalk test is in order to validate the supposed findings (Hello, Mythbusters?)???


Incidently, I have a dwindling stock of 30+year old .223 55gr FMJ reloads (mil surp brass) stored in mil surp ammo cans in a cool basement that go boom every time and disintegrate cinderblocks at 100 meters. Also have shot a dusty, spider web and mouse poop covered box of 20+ year old factory .30-30 stored on a shelf in a friends cabin up north, most went boom, but a couple went "click". Hmmm ... storage conditions to blame or .... ???

Just tossing out some things to think on and muddy the waters ...

JC

[Stradawhovious]

I don't think that anyone is damning ALL older ammo as suspect. The fact is that carry ammo is subjected to many things that the ammo stored in a cool dry basement in ammo cans is not. It gets jostled around (allegedly contributing to powder degradation), carried in the elements (allegedly contributing to powder and primer contamination), stored in the firearm (allegedly contributing to exposure to solvents), carried close to the skin (exposing the primer and powder to moisture vapor in the form of perspiration), cycled in and out of the firearm as a matter of course (contributing to bullet setback) and many others. Not all of the issues result in the round failing to fire. In the case of bullet setback and powder degradation in the absense of contamination it could result in dangerous pressure spikes. the gun doesn't do much good in self defense if most of it is in shards embedded in your hands and face and the rest of it is on the floor in pieces..........

Sure there are issues with new ammo too, most anyone who has shot tens of thousands of rounds of factory ammo will attest to a squib or a double charge, the manufacturers are certainly not void of error. With that said, I would fully expect that most carry ammo is going to go boom every time. I would just hate to be the one in a million exception to that due to aging carry ammo.

To address the issue of hollow points clogging on clothing.... I would find it hard to believe that that a round that was function to full performance (save expansion) would simply bounce off of the chest and go all but unnoticed by an assailant. Even when clogged it would show a certain (and in most cases improved) penetration due to the fact that it didn't expand. To answer to your small scale Mythbusters, I would be honered to shoot your ammo, and document with a written assessment and video. Just say the word!

[Joe Camo]

I did some searching for the Hydra-shok vs clothing reports, but cannot locate the reports (surprise, huh?). Was about 8-10 yrs ago when I saw them complete w/pictures & test data, but who knows what to believe ... could have been BS like the "blown up" Savage 10ML smokeless powder powder muzzleloader reports & pics circulating around.

Still, I think it would be an interesting, if set up properly and conducted in a reasonably "scientific" manner, to test various types, calibers and ages of ammo against targets that more accurately simulate "real world" scenarios / threats, not just bare ballistics gel. I'm more that willing to donate my "vintage" box of 40SW Hydra-shoks (plus my gun, shootin' skills and some set up labor) to such an endeavor. Heck, I'd even toss in a few other different ammo brands to boot. Maybe we could get the rest of that old guy's Hyda-shoks to test (if he hasn't tossed 'em)? I'm sure a few others would donate & participate as well, don'tcha think?

JC

[JJ]

Looking for something like this? http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

[Stradawhovious]

I did some searching for the Hydra-shok vs clothing reports, but cannot locate the reports (surprise, huh?).

Actually, I think that it was not all that uncommon for some hollow points to plug up and not expand. if my Ammolore is correct, I think that Federl came out with the HST to alleviate the issues with clogging that were being experienced with the Hydrashok. I'm sure that any number of the folks that are members here and do/used to work at the Federal plant might chime in on this.......................

[1911fan]

FIrst off, to stop on clothing, that clothing has to be ballistic materials. Even a plugged HP is going to drill a hole.

My experience has been that often revolver users, or I should say, revolver non users, who have a gun in drawer or closet for years and years, just in case, often wipe that gun down with gun oil. That oil goes somewhere, and if the gun always lays on the side of the next round in the rotation, that round can often be sitting in oil for years at a time, and it does not need to be a lot to wick in around the bullet just like sweat soldering a pipe fitting.

When the revolver is picked up, that oil soaked round and now oil contaminated powder in that round will fail to give proper ignition.

I have several cans of 1941 manufacture .38 S&W ammo that I have shot several round from in a british lend lease Victory model. I also have a lot of 1952 and 1944 .45 ACP that I used to shoot. ALL of that goes bang just fine.

[Seismic Sam]

I'm still finding the occasional RA 42 case (Rockford Arsenal, 45 ACP, 1942) out at Oakdale that has been fired, Never found a dud round of that stuff yet. On purely emotional reasons, I refuse to load any case that is older than ME, and that's pretty EFFEN old!! I would tend to believe the failed hollowpoint theory, as I recall that legendary FBI shootout where the Fed's hollowpoints failed miserably was 1986. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout Hollowpoint construction has come a long way since then, so I wouldn't worry about it in this day and age. As far as your factory ammo showing signs of age, that's an urban myth, period. Only story I ever heard about factroy ammo not working was some cop in the 2nd Precinct in Nordeast who never cleaned his gun, but sprayed it AND the ammo down once a week with gun oil and then wiped the gun clean.

[selurcspi]

Just to go in the other direction, I've had brand new ammo not fire (well the primer fired but not the round). There was no flash hole in the case, so the primer just blew itself out of the pocket.
Schlecht und Billig was the manufacturer, Sellier and Bellot for the uninitiated.

[diskdoctr]

I have never had any issues and pray I won't when the beast is needed. But, I rotate carry ammo every 3 months and shoot the retirees (No, not you older guys, although there have been a few that I....Nevermind, better not go there here).

[EJSG19]

I wrote my thesis on the subject in the other Deals thread. But long story short: ideally I think you'd change it out every 6 months to a year at least, maybe more often (because when you change it out, hopefully your getting some practice too.)

But, I've seen more factory loaded ammo fail than my own reloads, so it isn't always confidence inspiring knowing you have "new and untested" ammo in your gun. I only like it 100% after I've fired it and seen it work. Until then you have a gun full of "unknowns". Which is technically true with every round you fire. (though that chance of failure is pretty small usually)

I haven't read much about powder degradation, primers "expiring", or anything else mentioned here. Can somebody link to a credible source on that? Seems like speculation to me, no offense to anyone who believes whatever they believe. If you can afford to rotate it more, then by all means, do what makes you safest.

If you sweat a lot, and it gets into your ammo, or it gets wet otherwise and you can see discoloration or corrosion on the ammo, then obviously that is something to be swapped out. Damage to the ammo otherwise, the same.

[Stradawhovious]

If you sweat a lot, and it gets into your ammo, or it gets wet otherwise and you can see discoloration or corrosion on the ammo, then obviously that is something to be swapped out. Damage to the ammo otherwise, the same.

Not in a nickel plated case, you can't. Maybe on the bullet, but maybe not. As far as anything "expiring" from just being old, I won't subscribe to that. What does make sense, and in the act of telling us that it just can't happen, SS told us that it can happen is contamination from solvents. As far as powder degradation......... I can't validate the concept, but will say that once again, it makes sense. The school of thought says that over a long period of being constantle jostled through daily carry, powder can break down into finer and finer granules, eventually changing the burn rate of the powder. It could spike pressure levels into the "unsafe" territory. I will let SS tell me how "**** full of ****" that concept is, but on the surface it makes a good deal of sense.