Small standard pistol primers vs. magnum

[MNBud]

I just want to make this CLEAR, this is not substituting anything, the speer manual clearly states that cci 500, 550 primers can be used.
These are from edition 11 & 12.

[Seismic Sam]

Oddly enough, I had a can of 630 powder left over from the 1980's, and went through my copies of Speer manuals #8, #9, #10, #11, and #13 looking for a 9mm load that would use that powder. I did find one, but it called for the use of a magnum pistol primer with about 10 grains of 630, and I just decided to pass on the whole deal. As far as the copy of Speer manual #11 that you have posted, it indeed says up on top that CCI 500 and 550 primers are used in these loads. THAT is not the whole story, however, because if you look at the next to the last line on the page, you will see that it says: "*DENOTES THE USE OF CCI 550 MAGNUM PRIMER". The point here is that that asterisk is for SPECIFIC LOADS with CERTAIN POWDERS, and on the page you have shown, NONE of the loads listed are designed to be used with magnum primers.

If you go through all the data, you will find that there are some 2400 loads that need magnum primers, and some HS-5 and HS-6 loads also. The point here is that this manual lists some loads with regular primers and some with magnum primers, but NOWHERE does it state that they can be interchanged. Your post at least suggests that you could get away with using a magnum primer with a max load of Bullseye with one of the two bullets on that page based on the heading up top, while the fine print tells you that these loads DO NOT and SHOULD NOT use magnum primers.

[macphisto]

What's strange is that Speer 13 lists the same primers (CCI 500 and 550) for 38 Special, but there are no asterisks next to any of the loads denoting the use of magnum primers. In fact, I just checked again to make sure. I see the HS-6 load on the first scan you posted has an asterisk. HS-6 seems to have disappeared from the 38 Special load data in Speer 13. It is, however, listed for use with some of the +P loads, but with no asterisks. Speer = sloppy. I need another reloading manual quick!

[Seismic Sam]

What's strange is that Speer 13 lists the same primers (CCI 500 and 550) for 38 Special, but there are no asterisks next to any of the loads denoting the use of magnum primers. In fact, I just checked again to make sure. I see the HS-6 load on the first scan you posted has an asterisk. HS-6 seems to have disappeared from the 38 Special load data in Speer 13. It is, however, listed for use with some of the +P loads, but with no asterisks. Speer = sloppy. I need another reloading manual quick!

Welcome to the wonderful world of reloading. You read one thing wrong, and you can blow your ass clean off. That's why it pays to have 5, or 10, or more reloading manuals, and read them religiously from cover to cover, and then start noticing the differences between them. In addition, you should start memorizing what the normal primer is for the calibers you use. Magnum primers for the 38 Special? Yup, they were a rarity, and now they're unheard of. Their fault was not with the previous editions, but the 13th and 14th, where they left the two recommendations but no data for magnum primers. When I first found a 630 powder listing for the 9mm I was very happy, but I DID read the fine print and I wanted no part of a handload with a slow burning powder and a magnum primer in 9mm. With max loads maybe it will burn consistently, but why take the chance?? (And that's the ONLY reason you need a magnum primer to begin with...) Would any of you old farts with a Speer #8 or #9 manual want a free pound of 630 powder??

[Pinnacle]

What's strange is that Speer 13 lists the same primers (CCI 500 and 550) for 38 Special, but there are no asterisks next to any of the loads denoting the use of magnum primers. In fact, I just checked again to make sure. I see the HS-6 load on the first scan you posted has an asterisk. HS-6 seems to have disappeared from the 38 Special load data in Speer 13. It is, however, listed for use with some of the +P loads, but with no asterisks. Speer = sloppy. I need another reloading manual quick!

Welcome to the wonderful world of reloading. You read one thing wrong, and you can blow your ass clean off. That's why it pays to have 5, or 10, or more reloading manuals, and read them religiously from cover to cover, and then start noticing the differences between them. In addition, you should start memorizing what the normal primer is for the calibers you use. Magnum primers for the 38 Special? Yup, they were a rarity, and now they're unheard of. Their fault was not with the previous editions, but the 13th and 14th, where they left the two recommendations but no data for magnum primers. When I first found a 630 powder listing for the 9mm I was very happy, but I DID read the fine print and I wanted no part of a handload with a slow burning powder and a magnum primer in 9mm. With max loads maybe it will burn consistently, but why take the chance?? (And that's the ONLY reason you need a magnum primer to begin with...) Would any of you old farts with a Speer #8 or #9 manual want a free pound of 630 powder??

Sam - don't take this the wrong way

I LOVE YOU MAN (in a purely hetero way of course......)

[DeanC]

Another little nagging thing I've found is that these reloading manuals are not the Torah. When you buy a new one, be sure to check the mfg website for ERRATA.

If you buy a used manual, who knows where the errata is now? Common sense must be used even with a loading manual.

[MNBud]

Oddly enough, I had a can of 630 powder left over from the 1980's, and went through my copies of Speer manuals #8, #9, #10, #11, and #13 looking for a 9mm load that would use that powder. I did find one, but it called for the use of a magnum pistol primer with about 10 grains of 630, and I just decided to pass on the whole deal. As far as the copy of Speer manual #11 that you have posted, it indeed says up on top that CCI 500 and 550 primers are used in these loads. THAT is not the whole story, however, because if you look at the next to the last line on the page, you will see that it says: "*DENOTES THE USE OF CCI 550 MAGNUM PRIMER". The point here is that that asterisk is for SPECIFIC LOADS with CERTAIN POWDERS, and on the page you have shown, NONE of the loads listed are designed to be used with magnum primers.

If you go through all the data, you will find that there are some 2400 loads that need magnum primers, and some HS-5 and HS-6 loads also. The point here is that this manual lists some loads with regular primers and some with magnum primers, but NOWHERE does it state that they can be interchanged. Your post at least suggests that you could get away with using a magnum primer with a max load of Bullseye with one of the two bullets on that page based on the heading up top, while the fine print tells you that these loads DO NOT and SHOULD NOT use magnum primers.

I went to school a very long time ago but when I read that page it tells me that you may SAFELY use EITHER 500 or 550 primers and then it goes on to state that with these (*) particular loads it is denoted that you must use the 550 primers. The following page has many loads denoting with the *. No where in the manual does it state DO NOT and SHOULD NOT use magnum primers.

[Pinnacle]

Again let me preface this all with the statement - MAKE NO SUBSTITUTIONS WHEN RELOADING IT IS A BAD IDEA

The word MAY is a powerful word to people that reload. You may do this - BUT you may be working on the upper end of what MAY be considered safe. You MIGHT and that is another panic word for me) be able to get away with it - there are just some powders that need magnum primers and there are others that certainly do not. You MAY/MIGHT be able to get away with something or you MAY/MIGHT not.

When you pull the trigger there is no going back and thinking - jeez this MAY be a bad idea. You can never be too careful when reloading

When I have a doubt or I see the words MAY/MIGHT it gives me a reason to pause for the cause - do some more homework and think things over carefully.

Just MHO.....

[Seismic Sam]

Oddly enough, I had a can of 630 powder left over from the 1980's, and went through my copies of Speer manuals #8, #9, #10, #11, and #13 looking for a 9mm load that would use that powder. I did find one, but it called for the use of a magnum pistol primer with about 10 grains of 630, and I just decided to pass on the whole deal. As far as the copy of Speer manual #11 that you have posted, it indeed says up on top that CCI 500 and 550 primers are used in these loads. THAT is not the whole story, however, because if you look at the next to the last line on the page, you will see that it says: "*DENOTES THE USE OF CCI 550 MAGNUM PRIMER". The point here is that that asterisk is for SPECIFIC LOADS with CERTAIN POWDERS, and on the page you have shown, NONE of the loads listed are designed to be used with magnum primers.

If you go through all the data, you will find that there are some 2400 loads that need magnum primers, and some HS-5 and HS-6 loads also. The point here is that this manual lists some loads with regular primers and some with magnum primers, but NOWHERE does it state that they can be interchanged. Your post at least suggests that you could get away with using a magnum primer with a max load of Bullseye with one of the two bullets on that page based on the heading up top, while the fine print tells you that these loads DO NOT and SHOULD NOT use magnum primers.

I went to school a very long time ago but when I read that page it tells me that you may SAFELY use EITHER 500 or 550 primers and then it goes on to state that with these (*) particular loads it is denoted that you must use the 550 primers. The following page has many loads denoting with the *. No where in the manual does it state DO NOT and SHOULD NOT use magnum primers.

You realize what you have just done?? You just went public and said that in your learned opinion, the Speer manual says that you can safely interchange regular and magnum primers with ANY load where two primers listed. You do realize that if one of the many newbies in here takes your advice and gets injured, then it's on your head, and you may be liable in court for the injuries you have caused?? The word "must" does not appear in the asterisk statement. That's your addition. It says magnum primers were used with those loads, period.

And as far as the manual NOT saying aything about the use of magnum primers, onviously you didn't read page 27, which under the section on primers it says " Magnum primers may be used with faster burning or easy-to-ignite powders , but normally there is no advantage in doing so. As when changing other components, it is advisable to reduce powder charge weights on initial loading with magnum primers."

So, the manual says there's no advantage with faster powders, so it's a reasonable assumption that in the Speer #11 manual, they didn't use mangum primers unless they had a specific reason to do so. That also means that in the loads withOUT asterisks, those loads were developed with regular primers, and NOT magnum primers. IN addition, it cautions that you need to reduce powder weight when switching from regular primers to magnum primers. Gee, the manual says you better watch your ass when switching primers, but you say in your highly educated opinion of interpreting the English language that it's safe to do. Just swap in a magnum primer with a maximum charge of Bullseye, and the way you read it, you'll be fine. Like I said, if somebody gets hurt following your advice, then it's on your head and your conscience.

[chunkstyle]

Almost everyone who makes powder, prints load data for it. Almost everyone who makes bullets, makes data for *them*. Lee and Lyman manuals, and the rest for a first estimate, but double and triple check everything online.

If all are in agreement, your chances are good. If not, err on the side of the weaker charge, and pay attention at the range. Much better to remove a stuck bullet from a barrel, than pieces of the gun stuck into your face.

[jac714]

Much better to remove a stuck bullet from a barrel, than pieces of the gun stuck into your face.

Truer words have never been said.

The phrase "work up a load" mean just that.

I always start 20-25% below the manual load and increase or work up on the max load and try different priners. Not all primers are the same, a Winchester SPP will be different that a Magtech SPP with the same powder and bullet.

I tend to use magnum primers only in magnum calibers, I have never found a need to use s SMPP in a .38 spec but I haven't tried all available loads.

[Pinnacle]

Here are the rules that I follow

1. Always check reloading data that I plan on using against 3 sources and my own log book
2. Always repeat step 1
3. If in doubt - STOP and check some more
4. Load small batches and shoot prior to making more of the same ammo lot to be absulutely sure that all is well.
5. Check Check and check again...

I have loaded hundreds of thousands of rounds - and so far (knock on wood) my system has worked out for me.

[jac714]

Here are the rules that I follow

1. Always check reloading data that I plan on using against 3 sources and my own log book
2. Always repeat step 1
3. If in doubt - STOP and check some more
4. Load small batches and shoot prior to making more of the same ammo lot to be absulutely sure that all is well.
5. Check Check and check again...

I have loaded hundreds of thousands of rounds - and so far (knock on wood) my system has worked out for me.

6. If it seems like everything is going great, check everything because you missed something going wrong.

[1911fan]

One other thing to work out in your head.

Just because you have found the perfect load on paper, in ONE manual, Does that mean that that is load is safe or appropriate.

What I am trying to say is this: I was reloading for an older rifle in once popular chambering. Digging thru the shelf of manuals, all of a sudden I found a combo that seemed to just leap out, a 180 grain bullet, at almost 240 fps faster than any other manual, and it used powder and brass I had on hand. A quick trip to visit John Boy and buy the listed bullets and I was thinking hot darn, this bring the old fogey cartridge right up to .308 land. I was all set to load up, and little voice inside, said start REALLY low this time, So I loaded up 3 rounds at nearly 7 grains, (15% below) what the manual said was a very conservative max. load. The next 3 were at 6 grains down, 3 at 5 grains, 3 at 4 grains down, 3 at 3 grains down and 3 more at 2 grains down. That was just about a box of empties and I felt enough to make one trip to the farm with. I set the rifle out, it was a cool day, and little sun, loaded up the first 3 and fired the first shot. The lever was a bit stiff in opening, and the primer was a bit flat, I was confused, the manual said I had nearly 7 grains to go to reach max and I was hitting it with my first loads. I tried the next two, ( I was young, stupid, and inexperienced.) both were stiff to extract, primers showing signs of high pressure, but I was sure the book had to be right. I loaded the first of the second batch, a full 6 grains of powder under the listed max. First shot, the lever is almost locked up, I have to REALLY pull on it to open the bolt, the primer has extruded down the firing pin hole, and there is a really bright ring on the brass a 1/4 of an inch above the rim. I was young, stupid and inexperienced, but that sure looked like the pictures in the books and mags of a massive overload. I called John, he said bring me the loads. We broke them all down, my weights were within a tenth of what I said they were, my brass was trimmed to the right length, the bullet was the one listed in the manual, The rifle was sent downstairs to Grump, and a go no go gauge said the chamber was within specs.

John then went to his stack of reloading books, first speer, then hornady, then sierra, then IMR, and Winchester/olin. My load I had found stuck out like a sore thumb. It was clearly an overload. All of the other loads in the same class listed at about 41 grains, give or take two. Mine was 48 grains. Somehow, in their testing that had gotten a load that in their chambering did not blow up, but should have, I can not think what the pressure gun would read, but it would have had to clear 60K PSI in a cartridge that was SAAMI rated at 47K.



The basic lesson here is that there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you find a combo too good to be true, it probably is.

[Pat]

One other thing to work out in your head.

Just because you have found the perfect load on paper, in ONE manual, Does that mean that that is load is safe or appropriate.

What I am trying to say is this: I was reloading for an older rifle in once popular chambering. Digging thru the shelf of manuals, all of a sudden I found a combo that seemed to just leap out...

...The basic lesson here is that there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you find a combo too good to be true, it probably is.

Unfortunately this is exactly the reason I haven't been able to get into reloading. I have some idea just how much I don't know.

Also the reason I won't drink just anybody's home brewed beer. I do know how a little misstep in that arena can absolutely gut you.