First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

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Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby Scott Notaeh on Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:58 pm

Seismic Sam wrote:The only comment I have is your consideration of trading rifles, if I understood what you said correctly. The whole point of handloading is to gain experience working up loads for specific rifles you own, and the concept of switching rifles in an attempt to get away from some glitch you don't fully understand is essentially hiding your head in the sand and hoping it won't happen again. That is NOT the right attitude to have. You either LEARN what the problem is and fix it, or walk away from handloading altogether. Unless the rifle is patently defective (like one of Shippy's .25 Jennings... :roll: ), and I doubt that a gun with these specs is junk, you HAVE to figure out what's going on.

P.S. Magic marker on the bullet helps you see if it's engaging the lands or not. If it fits in the mag, I can't see how that's possible unless the ogive on these bullets is very short and blunt, and this class of bullet is meant for long range competition, so if it were that shape the B.C. would suck and it wouldn't be good for long ranges.


Sam,

I don't think I was sticking my head in the sand. Just trying to see if the issue followed the bolt or rifle around. Incorrectly troubleshooting is not ignoring the issue.

I don't think these rounds are engaging the lands either but I will check - this info is good to have and I should know it anyway. My hypothesis is that I didn't have some of the primers fully seated due to a combination of not removing the crimp enough and/or not cleaning the pockets well enough. I don't think any primers were sticking up above the case head but it is possible that some were flush with the case head rather than a bit below. I am not sure of the mechanism that this would cause pierced primers but I didn't see any soot marks around the primer to make it look like gas might escape as in your theory but what do I know. The issue is that I am not confident enough in my theory that high primers might cause this issue to load up more of the same load.

The rifle is new and I read in one of the manuals that pierced primers are often (but not always) due to an issue in the rifle. Most often the firing pin has a burr or is sharp. I changed out the firing pin and still saw the issue so this is more unlikely in my case. Also mentioned is an oversized firing pin hole, light hammer (not sure what this means), light firing pin or a weak firing pin spring. Sounds like the firing pin hits the primer and ignites the round and the firing pin should remain extended for the pressure spike. If it backs off early the pressure spike will push the brass from the bottom of the primer impact hole back out into the bolt area. I guess I can check the hole size on the bolt easy enough. Can also check for brass junk in the bolt. Not sure how to check the firing pin spring or hammer spring.
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Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby usnret on Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:21 pm

First thing is go and get some factory rounds and shoot them and see if you have the same problem. If you do, then it is probably a problem with the gun. If you don't, it is more than likely something to do with your rounds.
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Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby Scott Notaeh on Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:33 pm

usnret wrote:First thing is go and get some factory rounds and shoot them and see if you have the same problem. If you do, then it is probably a problem with the gun. If you don't, it is more than likely something to do with your rounds.


Orders to go and shoot sound like a good plan to me!
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Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby Scott Notaeh on Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:10 am

usnret wrote:First thing is go and get some factory rounds and shoot them and see if you have the same problem. If you do, then it is probably a problem with the gun. If you don't, it is more than likely something to do with your rounds.


Shot some factory green tipped 5.56 last night. Seemed like it was hotter than my loads. Point of impact much different than my loads. No pierced primers. Brass case heads have extractor cutout marks that my loads did not.

After playing around with my primer pocket prep and primer seating some more, i think I did a poor job on the first batches getting the primers fully seated. The brass I am working up now is much better. My plan is to start over from scratch working up some loads and this time use a chronograph to know where my velocity is at.
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Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby Seismic Sam on Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:16 am

Smart fellow, Scott!! Not surprised about the green tip case head marks. Real 5.56 military ammo is hotter than .223 loads, and the primer is a CCI #41 which is designed for those pressures.

When you do your chronograph work, make sure you figure out the Standard Deviation of the velocity for each string. Lowest S.D. = most consistent load.
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Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby mnglocker on Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:10 pm

Shippy is good with a chrono. Have him come out and shoot your rifle while you record the numbers.
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Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby Seismic Sam on Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:51 am

mnglocker wrote:Shippy is good with a chrono. Have him come out and shoot your rifle while you record the numbers.



Is Scott supposed to be recording the number of times that Shippy shoots the chrono, or the velocity readings???
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Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby mnglocker on Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:48 am

Seismic Sam wrote:
mnglocker wrote:Shippy is good with a chrono. Have him come out and shoot your rifle while you record the numbers.



Is Scott supposed to be recording the number of times that Shippy shoots the chrono, or the velocity readings???


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Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby mnglocker on Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:48 am

Seismic Sam wrote:
mnglocker wrote:Shippy is good with a chrono. Have him come out and shoot your rifle while you record the numbers.



Is Scott supposed to be recording the number of times that Shippy shoots the chrono, or the velocity readings???


Yes.
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What happens in the basement stays in the basement.


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Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby Rodentman on Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:19 pm

Seismic Sam wrote:This is completely a theory, as I've never had a pierced primer in my life, but if the crimp isn't totally removed, consider the consequences:

You seat the primer, and the crimp reduces the diameter so the side of the primer is no longer flush and hard against the side of the primer pocket. Okay, now you pull the trigger and the high pressure gases come back through the primer hole. Normally, this will expand the primer and seal it against the case, BUT if the sides are off the case walls, the gas can get between the primer and the case. Net effect, the primer may be partially ejected from the case onto the firing pin, thus piercing the primer, and then the case comes back and reseats the primer against the bolt face. If everything else is okay, a high pressure load on a hot day may crater the primer or blow it out of the case, but piercing the primer is not exactly the same animal. This is NOT just a symptom of high pressure, something else is wrong here..


Somewhat OT, but this advice is why I decided to use a crimp remover (RCBS new style 90386) on my 5.7 reloads. The primer seats easier, is not too loose, has less chance of getting flattened during the process, and is safer.
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Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby Scott Notaeh on Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:06 pm

Changed from CCI 400 primers to CCI 450 and I think that fixed my issue. Checked speeds on some loads and this is what I got. Again this is pushing 75 grain HPBT. Not sure why some higher loads were slower.


    IMR 8208 XBR- AVE - SD -Range
    22.7 - 2699 - 22- 54
    23 - 2671 - 19 -44
    23.2 - 2742 - 30- 79
    23.4 - 2698 - 11- 24
    23.6 - 2730 - 14- 33
    23.8 - 2763 - 11- 23
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Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby crbutler on Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:28 pm

How many rounds did you fire in each weight?

I've seen some pretty large swings that are due to insufficient sample size as far as the velocity issues.

More important is how did they group?
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Re: Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby Scott Notaeh on Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:37 pm

crbutler wrote:How many rounds did you fire in each weight?

I've seen some pretty large swings that are due to insufficient sample size as far as the velocity issues.

More important is how did they group?


Only 5 of each so low sample size for sure. Groups were fine but not great.
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Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby Seismic Sam on Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:51 am

The SD's for the first three suck big, flat rocks, and without having been there I wouldn't venture a guess as to why.

The next 3 have acceptable SD's but not outstanding. The drop in velocity is puzzling - did you weigh each charge with a beam powder scale, and get the value dead nuts on by adding or subtracting small amounts of powder??
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Re: First rifle cartridge reload attempt = pierced primers

Postby usnret on Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:31 am

Tell you what. Change to Accurate Arms 2015 powder. I have heard that IMR 8208 isn't all that good.
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