.357 Hand loads for Deer.

[Jack's My dog]

This may be a poor/controversial first post topic choice for outside of the introduction area, but here it goes anyways.

First here is my situation.

I know a lot of people feel the .357 is a marginal round for deer, but I am partial to my 6" GP 100, and getting a larger caliber pistol would require me to part with said GP. I plan on limiting my shots to 25-30 yards, once I achieve the off hand shooting consistency and accuracy I am working on. I am at the "pie plate" rule of thumb, that a lot of people head into the field with, but I realize hunting in .357 will leave me with a smaller margin for error.

My experience with hand loading is limited. I have about a year under my belt, and have loaded and shot about 1K of .38 and .357. These have been middle of the road loads for target shooting. I wanted to make sure I was getting the basics right before I attempted hotter stuff. I have begun working up some loads with the Hornady 158 and 180 gr. Hp-xtp both over H 110. So far no signs of over pressure that I can tell, and no bullet back-out, but I am not that close to max yet either.

After going back and doing some more reading, it looks like once people have settled on .357, the question becomes solid or hollow point bullets. The prior discussion on this site went between JHP's and JSP's. I understand that the question is of penetration and the concern is that the JHP's won't make it out the other side of the deer.

So after all that here are my questions. If you know of a place where this information is published and you could point me in the right direction that would be awesome as well.

1-At 25-30 yards with an appropriate shot to the boiler room, would there be a large difference in the penetration between JSPs and JHP's?

2- If I stay with the XTP's would it be better to go with the 158 and more velocity or the 180 and more weight? The Hornady 8th edition indicates only a 50 fps difference in the max loads with different powders for each. With that little of difference should I just go with what the gun likes better?

3-Can an electronic scale be trusted loads approaching/at max? I have the Hornady GS-1500, that came with my re-loading kit.

Let me know if I sound like I am about to get myself in trouble with any of this, I don't want to look like Mr. C Rodney James. I know ultimately I will have to be the one responsible for the ammo I choose and what shot I take, but any input is appreciated.

[goalie]

I know .44Mag isn't .357Mag, but my .44Mag with reloaded Hornady XTP bullets worked great on a doe last year at about 70 yards. I wouldn't think that a .357 at 25-30 yards would be just fine with the same bullet construction. Deer are not all that hard to kill at 25-30 yards. Just ask my bow.....

The above advice assumes you are willing to pass on any shot that you don't KNOW you can make, or that requires going through large bones.

[Jack's My dog]

I hear you on only taking good shots. I always wonder a little bit about peoples shot placement, when you hear the horror stories of deer getting away attributed to specific calibers. That said deer can be tough buggers, and you never know how far they will run. I took one last year at 15 yds with a 20 gauge 3"sabot, straight through the heart and the thing just bolted in such a healthy gallop, I swore I missed until I heard it pile up 50-70 yds away.

[Seismic Sam]

Well Jack's owner, welcome aboard. I'll get the serious stuff out of the way first. The GS-1500 is an absolute POS at $37, and do not even THINK about trying max .357 loads with this thing!! The first big red danger sign is the Hornady website itself, where it is stated that "You can trust this scale to make quick work of your most precise handloading tasks." Gee, this is the FIRST manufacturer's ad I have EVER seen that doesn't even HAVE an accuracy specification, but the claim is made anyway that it's good for really precise handloading, which means 0.1 grains at least, and even less for Evad and a few others who have jewler's scales that can get to 0.02 grains. Run away!! Run far away from this POS before you get hurt!!! Midway states a spec of +/- 0.2 grain (dunno where they got that...), which is NOT good enough for pushing the envelope on a 357 hunting load. You can get a Redding beam balance that's about $95 that will do 0.1 grain, or rugersol can steer you towards an electronic with 0.02 grain precision that will probably do the job.

Secondly, trying to push the edge of the envelope with max loads pretty much requires a chrono, because it will tell you if your load is about to go into the stratosphere if the velocity or the SD of the velocity start to spike, which is right before your gun goes kablooey and you get hurt. I know you may not want to hear this, but with max handloads, it's no chrono, no tickee, no washee, meybee KABOOMEE!!!

Seeing as I don't hunt, won't even comment on bullet construction and Bambi shots.

Considering the money outlay you're looking at for a 357 hunting load, you may want to surf the web and see what really hot factory stuff is out there. While it's not the same caliber, I do have some Hornady XTP bullet loads in 500 S&W that are just smoking hot, to the point that I don't even try to duplicate them with my handloads. Would you believe a 350 grain XTP going 1950 FPS for 2900 ft-lbs?? Yup, same energy at the muzzle as a .308 round!! This is for the S&W 500, however, which has a SAAMI spec of 65,000 PSI, so Hornady doesn't have to worry about a variety of weaker guns that are out there. They and others probably do have to worry for the number of 357's out there, and remember that they have to include stuff like the 642 Scandium airweights, which are NOT anything like a Ruger Super Blackhawk or a Coonan.

I would recommend you look at Hornady CorBon, Doubletap, and Buffalo Bore, and they will have ammo that will be specifically labeled for hunting rather than self-defense. In particular, you may want to look closely for any DISCLAIMERS that these loads are only to be shot in certain guns, which is what you're looking for.

As far as accuracy, that's pretty much something you can't measure without a Ransom machine rest for the pistol, and 95% of all handgun accuracy depends on the loose nut behind the trigger and not the gun or ammo. For rifles, it's pretty much the opposite, which is where all this high end handloading comes in.

Good luck, and unless you want to make that significant a cash and time outlay to really push the envelope on a .357, there is some smokin' hot factory ammo out there, provided it's in stock.

[Jack's My dog]

Sam,

Thanks for the reply. It is good to know about the scale. I had some concerns after using it for a while, and you confirmed my suspicions. I do not have a chronograph and would like to obtain one, but will not have the funds in the near future. I don't think the XTP's will go stale, so I think I will put them up for a while, and do some research into the commercially available hunting loads. For now I will stick with the middle of the road loads I have been making and shooting until I can upgrade my equipment.


Thanks Again.

[Duff-Man]

Along the lines of the GS-1500 being a piece, for hot/max loads is it recommended that each round is individually weighed?

Wish I could a swiped on of the scales I used in upper level chem classes in college.

[DitchDR]

Since your gonna stick to factory loads for hunting for the time being, in addition to the brands SS mentioned, I like to Federal Fusion in my GP100. That seem to be the most commonly available in my area. I have to travel to find those other brands. The Hornady Leverevolution Ammo did ok in the GP but the Fusion were much better.

When it comes to the hand loads, I have had my best success with the 158gr XTP and 2400. I am working with the 158 grain Nosler Hunting Bullets, but thats in progress.

[Jack's My dog]

Since your gonna stick to factory loads for hunting for the time being, in addition to the brands SS mentioned, I like to Federal Fusion in my GP100. That seem to be the most commonly available in my area. I have to travel to find those other brands. The Hornady Leverevolution Ammo did ok in the GP but the Fusion were much better.

When it comes to the hand loads, I have had my best success with the 158gr XTP and 2400. I am working with the 158 grain Nosler Hunting Bullets, but thats in progress.

Thanks for the tip on the fusions, and I will make a note on the load recommendations for the future.

[Jack's My dog]

Along the lines of the GS-1500 being a piece, for hot/max loads is it recommended that each round is individually weighed?

Wish I could a swiped on of the scales I used in upper level chem classes in college.

Since I am new to the hand loading deal, I have been weighing every charge individually. I would feel way better about that if the scale was not a p.o.s. What tipped me off, was remeasuring the same load with varying results. That is one of the reasons I have not attempted to get close to max.

[crbutler]

If you stick to your range parameters (ie, 30 yards or less) and the ability to hold to a 6" group, and a broadside shot, I would not be too worried about the particulars as long as it is a full velocity (in other words not reduced to under 800 FPS) load with a 158 grain or heavier bullet. Any jacketed soft point or hollow point with those parameters is going to kill the deer Hard cast heavy bullets will penetrate through the whole deer. It may run a little bit, but not too far. The problem will be if you shoot it outside the heart/lung area. I know several folks who use .357's for hogs, which are a heavier built/tougher animal than deer. As has been said, they are not a very hard to kill animal in the greater scheme of things. Bad shot placement usually causes most bullet failures.

[liferefugee]

the scale has its place, I like to use it as a checking scale for finished rounds. I use my example round (I have one for each recipe) to set the scale and then randomly check finished rounds. You may have to zero it often, at least I do just to be sure, but it has always weighed my test weight correctly. Next step is to get a set of test weights. For measuring individual loads I used a 10-10 scale though just to be sure.

[Minnesota55434]

Welcome,

I bow hunt and find it a lot funner then rifle. I just picked up pistole hunting to explore the fun for myself two years ago.

I picked up a GP100 SS 6" and hand load.

I really like the middle of the road load for power and follow up shots if needed.

357 mag load:
14.5g H110
158g winchester JHP
CCI SPM primer

38special target load:
4.5g titegroup
Rainer 125g
CCI SPM primer

I shoot both out to 150yards for fun. 50 yards is my limit on game but thats more then my line of vision in my bow hunting food plots.

My 357mag load has only had the chance finished off a deer (tracked for a friend my first year I had the GP100) at 20 yards and Im very happy how it preformed.

Hope you have fun, I sure am!

[Seismic Sam]

the scale has its place, I like to use it as a checking scale for finished rounds. I use my example round (I have one for each recipe) to set the scale and then randomly check finished rounds. You may have to zero it often, at least I do just to be sure, but it has always weighed my test weight correctly. Next step is to get a set of test weights. For measuring individual loads I used a 10-10 scale though just to be sure.

Just curious, but just what is it that you think that you are measuring by weighing your finished loads as some sort of QC check? The reason I ask is shown in the following table:
Got weights to .001 gram with my Mettler balance and then converted them to .01 grains, which purists can point out isn't mathematically correct, but 2 decimal places is closer than 1 or 3.
Measured the weight of JUST 5 of two types of 45 ACP cases and bullets, to see what the max variation in grains was going to be. Obviously, if I had done 50 or 100 cases or bullets, the extreme spread would be EVEN BIGGER.
I am deliberately ignoring primer weight variability, just for the sake of simplicity, and in this case it doesn't matter at all.



Now, the Lyman Pistol manual 3rd Edition lists for Bullseye powder a min-max spread of 3.5 - 5.6 grains for the lead 200 grain cast SWC, and 3.8 - 5.3 grains for a 230 grain jacketed bullet.

As you can see, the variability of mixed headstamp 45 brass TOTALLY OBSCURES the weight of the Bullseye powder, so you could have anything from a squib load to a fairly deadly double charge and have no chance of seeing it at all!
With identical premium Hornady nickel brass cases, the variation is still 1.62 grains, which is plenty to turn a max load into a kablooey load with Bullseye powder.
With factory made Hornady XTP bullets the variation is down to .73 grains, but that's still too much variation in powder for Bullseye, so even premium factory bullets partially hide the weight of the powder.
With hand cast Lyman 200 grain SWC that I cast about 30 years ago, the variation is 1.25 grs. which compared to factory jacketed bullets, is pretty darn good considering I made them myself. Still, way too much variation to figure out from the finished load WTF the weight of the powder really is.

Bottom line, variations in the weight of a 45 case will have a very minor effect on pressure with Bullsye powder, if any.
Variations in weight of the bullet of +- 1 grain won't make diddly squat worth of difference in the pressure or velocity of the load.
Combine the above two variations, however, and you have ZERO chance of accurately knowing how much powder is in any load. Hell, you can't even tell if there IS powder in a finished round or not in this particular example!

In general this will be the way the variability will shake out, with the case and bullet partially or completely obscuring the weight of the powder, and it's the powder weight that's CRITICAL with any load.

So, what is it that you specifically accomplishing by weighing ever finished load?? You have 4 separate components (case, bullet, powder, primer), and each of them have certain statistical fluctuations in weight. How do you separate out the individual fluctuations of each component by measuring just the total weight of all 4 after the load is completed??

And no, this isn't just pointless technical jabberwocky from an old reloading nerd. In this particular example, which would be fairly common, you could easily miss a double charge of Bullseye or 231 or Titegroup in a 40 or 45 load, and we've had people in here blow a gun completely apart with what was probably a double charge.

[Seismic Sam]

Since I am new to the hand loading deal, I have been weighing every charge individually. I would feel way better about that if the scale was not a p.o.s. What tipped me off, was remeasuring the same load with varying results. That is one of the reasons I have not attempted to get close to max.

Congratulations on being a heads up handloader!! Gee, does two weights for the same powder charge on my scale mean its a POS, or what??

Since this a pet peeve of mine however, and you were smart enough to not just blindly follow what that digital display was telling you, could I borrow your POS for a week or so?? I have a Mettler .001 gram balance that I can test it against, and I would like to see how bad this thing really is, so I can publish the data. I live in Afton, and am regularly in St. Paul, so if you live close could we meet up somewhere?? If you live in Chaska, nevermind...
I promise I will take good care of the scale, like I do all my scales, and return it to you in the exact same shi**y shape that it's currently in. It's just that there has been a lot of discussion about digital scales in here, and damn little hard data comparing a model to a lab standard balance, one column of data is worth 3 pages of hot air and conjecture from me or anybody else in here. Please PM me if you want to meet.

Thanks,

SS

[Duff-Man]

Another thing is the powder measure itself. The powder metering assembly that came with my LnL wasn't very consistent with small charges (i.e. handgun loads) the Lock-N-Load Powder Measure Handgun Rotor and Metering Assembly helped for consistency in the charges.