Confused? Yes, yes, I am!

[John S.]

I understand what you're saying Sam. If the XTP bullet is longer than say a speer of the same weight, and you make both rounds the same COL, the XTP is going to stick INSIDE the brass further than, say, the speer bullet! Thus, less space is available inside the brass for powder, or, air for that matter.

[noylj]

ALL manuals that show a COL are only giving a minimum COL that the data applies to—Lee is just the only one to properly label it such.
COL is ALWAYS dependent on the bullet ogive, the magazine (how long a round it will take and when it releases the round), the feed ramp, and the chamber. Bullet length has a small effect on pressure (note, the whole fear of shorter COL started with an article/ad showing a 9x19 round that produced ~35ksi would produce 60+ ksi if the bullet was pushed into the case 0.25"), but that is all taken care of by ALWAYS going back to the lowest starting load when you start to load a new bullet. You work up a load based on the COL you determine before you start to load.
There is a range of COL that will function in any given gun and the most accurate COL is generally the longest COL that feeds and chambers.
What I assume you hope to achieve by measuring the bullet length is to avoid re-working a load—assuming that as long as the bullet weight is the same and the length of bullet seated in the case is the same, pressures will be the same.

[John S.]

ALL manuals that show a COL are only giving a minimum COL that the data applies to—Lee is just the only one to properly label it such.
COL is ALWAYS dependent on the bullet ogive, the magazine (how long a round it will take and when it releases the round), the feed ramp, and the chamber. Bullet length has a small effect on pressure (note, the whole fear of shorter COL started with an article/ad showing a 9x19 round that produced ~35ksi would produce 60+ ksi if the bullet was pushed into the case 0.25"), but that is all taken care of by ALWAYS going back to the lowest starting load when you start to load a new bullet. You work up a load based on the COL you determine before you start to load.
There is a range of COL that will function in any given gun and the most accurate COL is generally the longest COL that feeds and chambers.
What I assume you hope to achieve by measuring the bullet length is to avoid re-working a load—assuming that as long as the bullet weight is the same and the length of bullet seated in the case is the same, pressures will be the same.

That all depends on what powder, primer and how many grains is used to start the work up. Lee sends with its dies min/max COL too! That, also shows OAL lengths for Brass too, so, if brass needs to be trimed down, you can do that also. Although, they say OAL as in Over all length, min/max

[John S.]

Even more confused now?????????????? I think I'll reload for my SP101 and buy factory for the Coonan. Vihtavouri reloading manual 2006, w XTP 125gr, says use small rifle primer? WTF?

And Start is 16.8 gr Never Exceed 18.4 (compressed). N110 powder

Then, it states starting OAL is 1.575, with Never exceed OAL at 1.575?

Every place else has OAL of 1.590, and the drawing of the cartridge with measurements shows OAL in pic of 1.590. Now, is the shorter OAL because of the XTP bullet or, WTF?

Like I said, I'll just reload light loads for the Ruger, and stick with factory for the Coonan. There are millions of different data, it's not worth it.

[JJ]

This isn't rocket surgery. Look at a couple data sets, figure out your min/max charge and COAL. If there is a variance between data sets, split the difference. Start at 10% below max and work up.

Shoot

Each and every publisher will garner different results, as a result if different components and different test apparatus. You will see variation between manuals, and occasionally publishers will make typos (this is why multiple references should be checked). If you are scared to reload based on these small variances, you need to spend some time around an experienced reloader to bolster your skill set and understanding of the process.

Using SR primers in pistol loads is not voodoo. The only difference between SR/Sp primer is cup thickness. SR primers will handle higher pressure. I know some that use SR primers in all their pistol loads, just to limit the amount of different components they need to stock.

[John S.]

This isn't rocket surgery. Look at a couple data sets, figure out your min/max charge and COAL. If there is a variance between data sets, split the difference. Start at 10% below max and work up.

Shoot

Each and every publisher will garner different results, as a result if different components and different test apparatus. You will see variation between manuals, and occasionally publishers will make typos (this is why multiple references should be checked). If you are scared to reload based on these small variances, you need to spend some time around an experienced reloader to bolster your skill set and understanding of the process.

Using SR primers in pistol loads is not voodoo. The only difference between SR/Sp primer is cup thickness. SR primers will handle higher pressure. I know some that use SR primers in all their pistol loads, just to limit the amount of different components they need to stock.

So, then, I take it SR primers are more power than a SP but less than a Mag primer? Or, as stated, is it simply cup thickness, between SR & SP? And, why is COAL showing 1.575 for XTP N110 by Vihtavouri?

[Seismic Sam]

ALL manuals that show a COL are only giving a minimum COL that the data applies to—Lee is just the only one to properly label it such.

WRONG!! Speer #14 shows MAX COAL for the cartridge in the header section, and then shows the COL for each bullet used in the data. Hornady #8 also shows MAX COAL and COL for each bullet like Speer. The ONLY manual I have found that both neglects to tell you the bullet length AND only specifically lists MIN COL is the Lee manual. If you know of another manual where the bullet length is NOT specified and the only COL listed is the MINIMUM, please tell us what it is.

[JJ]

SR primers are in essence the same as a SPM, with a thicker cup. Start at 10% below max and work up.

Can't speak to VV's data set. Publisher may have made a typo or omission, or during their test (with their particular components/apparatus) they may have observed a variance. Also remember that if you look at data, CIP pressure and SAAMI pressure there is a 20+% difference in pressure.

Basic reloading: start low, work up. Once a load is developed, any change (component type, or even lot), reduce load and work back up.

Problem solved.

[John S.]

ALL my Lee dies have come with a max COAL, in the drawing bullet spec, AND they only show MIN COAL, or OAL in their chart on the same paper that is folded inside the set of dies. That paper says nothing about compressed or not, with an XTP 124gr bullet, but, the manual however shows compressed for both start and max powder loads, of N110 using the Hornady XTP 125 gr bullet. So, Lee does show max COAL in their drawing cartridge lengths, at the first page of the Caliber, and max trim length for the brass of 1.290 and a COAL of 1.590. But the VH manual 2006 shows XTP 124gr COAL of 1.575. or, what 15/100ths shorter? So, I guess the max COAL is actually shown in Lee manual too only in the measurements drawing, just NOT the various recipe charts. AND nineither Lee paper or Manual say's a damn thing about primer!

Wait, just looking again at VH 2006 manual, it says starting and Max loads OAL 1.575 in. Although, I just noticed they show a drawing with 1.590 OAL, so, basically, they DO NOT say that 1.575 is Min. COAL and that drawing doesn't show that max COAL is 1.590 in the drawing either. No min COAL, or, Max COAL, just shows the two diff lengths, but, not specifying if it is min. or max. I guess your just supposed to "assume" they mean Min. and Max?

[Seismic Sam]

I would NOT make that assumption. I suspect the max COAL may be coming from the SAAMI blueprint for the cartridge, and the other, shorter one is the length that their cartridges were when they developed the load data. As I said above, the Lee manual is peculiar in that in the actual load data it shows ONLY the MIN COL, and does NOT give you any idea the brand or length of the bullets listed. In other words, the only data they are giving you to cover their own a&& is the minimum length of the cartridge that you should load, so they are protected from somebody seating the bullet too deep and blowing themselves up. With any other manual, they publish MAX COAL and the COAL for each bullet that they developed data for, and the bullet lengths are clearly listed.

[John S.]

I would NOT make that assumption. I suspect the max COAL may be coming from the SAAMI blueprint for the cartridge, and the other, shorter one is the length that their cartridges were when they developed the load data. As I said above, the Lee manual is peculiar in that in the actual load data it shows ONLY the MIN COL, and does NOT give you any idea the brand or length of the bullets listed. In other words, the only data they are giving you to cover their own a&& is the minimum length of the cartridge that you should load, so they are protected from somebody seating the bullet too deep and blowing themselves up. With any other manual, they publish MAX COAL and the COAL for each bullet that they developed data for, and the bullet lengths are clearly listed.

AND most other manuals list the primer type too! Lee nope!

[Dutch]

From the VV reloading guide V8:


Edit: Personally I'd start on the low end with N110. Which of course is a given with any powder, but IMO even more so with N110. While it seems not as spectacular (flash and boom) as WW296/H110, it's more potent. I've used it for many years and have experienced more wear and tear on my Desert Eagles by using N110 than with WW296. You'll appreciate how clean it burns though.

[Mauser98]

Like JJ said, this isn't rocket surgery. The information in the manuals is just data, and every manual will contain different data, based upon the components and equipment they used in their testing of the cartridge.

Hornady has 2 XTP 125 grain bullets in .357. #35710 is a hollow point bullet, and is what I have here.

Then they list #35730 and that is a flat point. I don't have one of these to compare with the HP.

Hornady 8th doesn't show different COL's for each bullet, only 1.590" for either.

VV states they used the XTP FP version in their loading data. It may be that the FP version of the bullet is shorter in length, but the base to Cannelure length is the same. If that was the case, then the COL would be shorter if seating to the same point in the cannelure. I'm not seeing in the VV data where they are using SR primers either. They show SP in their data.
http://www.lapua.com/upload/downloads/brochures/2011/vihtavuorireloadingguideed9eng.pdf

vihtavuorireloadingguideed9eng.pdf.pdf

(344.94 KB) Downloaded 175 times

Being as these are a cannelured bullet, seat to the middle of the cannelure, and crimp. With the HP version of these bullets, with my brass trimmed to 1.280, the COL for the cartridge is 1.590" (+/- 0.003") when seating to the middle of the cannelure. This cartridge passes the plunk test on my Coonan.

The HP version measures 0.545" long on average of 10 random bullets checked. With my load, that means the bullet is seated 0.235" into the case, which best I can measure the cannelure to base length, is right in the middle of the cannelure. Does any one have the FP version of these bullets to compare measurements?

So what I'm trying to get at here, is follow what JJ posted about the process of load work-up. Seat to the cannelure to start with, and perform the plunk test to verify your not getting into the lands (I highly doubt they will). With a cannelured bullet, and crimping with a roll instead of a taper, seating to the cannelure is about your only option anyway. Start low, work up the charges and don't worry about compressing the charge.

[JJ]

Wait, just looking again at VH 2006 manual, it says starting and Max loads OAL 1.575 in. Although, I just noticed they show a drawing with 1.590 OAL, so, basically, they DO NOT say that 1.575 is Min. COAL and that drawing doesn't show that max COAL is 1.590 in the drawing either. No min COAL, or, Max COAL, just shows the two diff lengths, but, not specifying if it is min. or max. I guess your just supposed to "assume" they mean Min. and Max?

They are not noting a Mi length, only documenting their actual tested length. 1.59 is max COAL, don't infer that their 1.xxx tested length is min UNLESS NOTED. I don't have that particular bullet in hand, but I will assume it is a cannelured bullet? If so, the tested OAL Zmay vet well just note a seating depth that fully engages the cannelure at some position.

As for the Lee data, if its incomplete, don't use it as a point if reference. Reloading is not rocket surgery. You are over analyzing data that isn't even present. 1.575", and 16.8g of N110, and pick your primer. There is your start data. As long as that min charge corresponds with your other sources, you are gtg. Increase charge at .2g increments. Know that whatever length between 1.575-1.590, you are gtg. Pick an OAL value abywhere between A-B and start there.

[John S.]

I too have XTP HP. Ok seat to cannalure, I dont use a crimping die on .357, but, the Lee Seating die is supposed to crimp. OR,, should I use a Lee Crimping die also? I did on 45-70 govt?