New G2 Research personal defense rounds

[TTS]

[crbutler]

Hate to say it but your naysaying proof is garbage this time.

He had his chance- why not compare it to a popular SD bullet instead of shooting twice with a .22 (which has the ding against it that it is excessively penetrating with a solid anyhow)

The expert ballistician is someone who has a point. The guy who does some such nonsense as a shoot twice with a .22 to compare with 1 shot from a 9 mm is sadly lacking in scientific training...

I also thought that the FBI tests were done with 20% Ballistic gelatin?

Look, I am not going to buy the RIP round, and I like my projectiles to stay in one piece; but this is searching for something bad to say, not a even pseudoscientific presentation. If anything he showed that the round did in gelatin what G2 says it will.

[TTS]

Hate to say it but your naysaying proof is garbage this time.

He had his chance- why not compare it to a popular SD bullet instead of shooting twice with a .22 (which has the ding against it that it is excessively penetrating with a solid anyhow)

The expert ballistician is someone who has a point. The guy who does some such nonsense as a shoot twice with a .22 to compare with 1 shot from a 9 mm is sadly lacking in scientific training...

I also thought that the FBI tests were done with 20% Ballistic gelatin?

Look, I am not going to buy the RIP round, and I like my projectiles to stay in one piece; but this is searching for something bad to say, not a even pseudoscientific presentation. If anything he showed that the round did in gelatin what G2 says it will.

Slow down big man, the video wasn't proof of anything. It was just pertinent to the discussion....

The guy in the video even admitted that the penetration claims the company makes are true, that is much better than most of the exotic rounds sold.

[UnaStamus]

FBI/IWBA protocol calls for 10% odnance grade ballistic gelatin cooled to 39.2F and shot within 20 minutes of removal from the cooler, provided that it's not in direct heat like out baking in the sun in July. This was originally developed by the US Army Wound Ballistics Research Laboratory. Ideally the block should be as close to the 39.2F temp as possible. To calibrate the block, they must shoot a BB at 590fps (+/-30fps) from 10ft and have 8.5cm of penetration. Once calibrated, it's at ideal density for testing.

The video itself provides some good info. Is it generally scientific and accurate? Yes. Is it something that I would use in front of a jury? No. It's not expert level information like you would see in an ATK video with Johan Boden.
The key is to understand the takeaways from the video. There are four major takeaways that do in fact corroborate what other experts like Doc Roberts are saying:
1. The "trocar" fragments act exactly like other fragmenting urban loads, in that they have very shallow penetration that likely would not go beyond superficial tissue damage.
2. The base is a solid projectile that will penetrate deep enough to hit vitals, provided that it does not go through barriers.
3. The base projectile is very light, and likely around 1/3 the weight of a typical 9mm JHP projectile. This light weight can adversely effect penetration depth because of the loss of kinetic energy.
4. The base projectile does not expand. Since pistol rounds do not tangibly wound with the temporary stretch cavity, The only damage being caused is from the permanent crush cavity of the projectile. The diameter of a 9mm projectile is .355", so the base is likely only going to create a .355" wound channel.

What you glean from that is some pretty important information. This is nothing that the video exclusively points out, but rather simply aids to lend creedence to. There are a couple of fundamental discrepencies with the G2 RIP.
First, urban type high fragmentation ammunition is known to have spotty reliability. There are documented instances where they have failed to "stop" when the person was not shot in the CNS. Penetration is most important wounding factor with pistol rounds.
Second, the testing done has only been done in ballistic gel. G2 makes no indication of whether they followed FBI/IWBA protocol. Whenever people get good penetration numbers from questionable ammunition, it's often because they are using improper non-standard procedures like using gelatin that is too warm. This testing has only been done in ballistic gel, and there has been no indication of performance through barriers, be they intermediate or hard barriers. G2 has brought Craig Sawyer on board to help test the ammunition, but I suspect that they're going to just throw a ton of money at the Sawman to endorse the bullet and be done with it. Nothing against the Sawman, but he's not a ballistics expert. Notice that G2 has not gone to recognized ballistics experts to get their input, which other companies like Hornady, Winchester and ATK have done. Be careful of companies who use FBI/IWBA "like" tests, but don't follow all of the testing protocols and haven't performed any of the barrier tests.
Third is the wound channel. You have a projectile that is likely 50-60gr at top weight, with a diameter of .355". Compare that to a 147gr HST, which retains 100% of its weight through no and intermdiate barriers, and opens up to a diameter of .850". Even a 115gr Speer GDHP can open up to a diameter of .590". That's a massive advantage over a .355" projectile.