How often to replace defensive ammo - a story

[EJSG19]

If you sweat a lot, and it gets into your ammo, or it gets wet otherwise and you can see discoloration or corrosion on the ammo, then obviously that is something to be swapped out. Damage to the ammo otherwise, the same.

Not in a nickel plated case, you can't. Maybe on the bullet, but maybe not. As far as anything "expiring" from just being old, I won't subscribe to that. What does make sense, and in the act of telling us that it just can't happen, SS told us that it can happen is contamination from solvents. As far as powder degradation......... I can't validate the concept, but will say that once again, it makes sense. The school of thought says that over a long period of being constantle jostled through daily carry, powder can break down into finer and finer granules, eventually changing the burn rate of the powder. It could spike pressure levels into the "unsafe" territory. I will let SS tell me how "******* full of ****" that concept is, but on the surface it makes a good deal of sense.

Well the test sounds simple. Carry a round for 3-6 months, whatever your own interval is. Then pull that bullet and dump the powder on a piece of white paper. Compare to the powder you just took out of a brand new round that has never been carried.

The proof is on the paper!

Trouble is, each batch of ammo a company makes, uses slightly different powder. So you'd have to do that every time you bought a box of ammo, and by the end of the carry interval, your answer would come after you already carried them the whole interval... but, anyway, to test it once, would offer some clarity on the issue.

ETA: I've got some that have been carried for quite a while, I'd offer up 1 HST to the cause. And, for you scientific types, obviously this is a visual inspection only, and not a controlled environment capable of accurately testing burn rates, or potential chemical makeup changes in the powder...

[Seismic Sam]

If you sweat a lot, and it gets into your ammo, or it gets wet otherwise and you can see discoloration or corrosion on the ammo, then obviously that is something to be swapped out. Damage to the ammo otherwise, the same.

Not in a nickel plated case, you can't. Maybe on the bullet, but maybe not. As far as anything "expiring" from just being old, I won't subscribe to that. What does make sense, and in the act of telling us that it just can't happen, SS told us that it can happen is contamination from solvents. As far as powder degradation......... I can't validate the concept, but will say that once again, it makes sense. The school of thought says that over a long period of being constantle jostled through daily carry, powder can break down into finer and finer granules, eventually changing the burn rate of the powder. It could spike pressure levels into the "unsafe" territory. I will let SS tell me how "******* full of ****" that concept is, but on the surface it makes a good deal of sense.

Yes, I think that the powder getting broken aparty by carrying is patently false. Why?? Maybe JJH can weigh in on this since he works at Federal, but consider military 45 ACP or .223 ammo. It MUST be able to withstand being carried in heavy vibration conditions in humvees in the 'Stan, and helicopters, and in the holds of ships, and getting heaved around by marines and squids and such, and it still has to perform to the same spec as when it left the factory. All the Class II medical equipment I worked with had to pass a ship tests, where cases of finished product are placed on a vibrator table and shaken quite vigorously for several hours to simulate shipping all the way to the other side of the world. I would imagine military ammo is even viewed as more mission critical, and gets the snot shaken out of it in testing. And besides that, the motion of one of US carrying our gun is enough to break powder down?? Maybe if you were a hula dancer and carried a 1911 in your grass skirt you could generate enough whiplash to do something, but one of US occasionally shifing our position at Alary's or the Gopher?? No EFFEN way in hell!!!

Oh, blew off all my 50 GI carry ammo at the range yesterday, and some of that stuff has been in the console of my truck for 10,000 - 15,000 miles, and have you driven I-94 in the Midway in the last year?? It's WORSE than my 1500+ foot long driveway!! The chrono said the velocity was exactly the same as when I worked up the load.

Like I said, RA 42 ammo is now 68 years old, and it still goes bang when you shoot it. End of story.

[JJ]

I'd have agree with SS on this one. Although I will be honest, we don'tdo regular floor tests to validate the point. The only thing that is mildy close is our "semi going over a rather large cliff" vibratory testing on shotshell loads with buffer to ensure our crimp seals are intact and functioning properly. I would be much more concerned about sweat/moisture ect.. That at least you could prevent by using a primer sealer(nailpolish) on both the primer and mouth of the case, ensuring a moisture-proof seal. I would personally feel comfortable carrying ammo that was changed out every 6-12 months, but in all reality as long as you occasionally are actually looking at your ammo and are not seeing corrosion ect, i would be more conserned about mechanical failure or even worse operator error in a FTF.

[PhilaBOR]

Interesting experience at the range over the weekend. Haven't shot my carry ammo in my LCP for a year or two. LCP goes everywhere with me except into bed and into the shower stall. Sweat, rain, humidity, everywhere. Decided it was time, had a couple of fresh boxes in the range bag. Pulled out the little bugger, aimed and pulled the trigger. It went bang. What a sweet gun to shoot, hardly any recoil...wait, it's NEVER a sweet gun to shoot! Pulled again. Another light load. Again, it went pop, no eject. Eject the mag, the brass, took the gun apart, no bullet in barrel. Finished off the rest of the mag and loaded up fresh Cor-Bon. Tested it. Unpleasant recoil & flip. Great! And made a committment to replace more often. I plan to do at the beginning and middle of every year.

Sure glad I didn't need that spoiled ammo before I discovered it!

[Dave Pendleton]

Just out of curiousity, has anyone ever experienced a first shot failure?

Second round failure or FTF?

Anyone? I'll even take a link as proof...

[yuppiejr]

As a general rule I'd think it's a good idea to shoot any gun you keep around for defensive purposes every quarter or so (4 times a year) both to keep the ammunition and your skills fresh. I'd figure at least a magazine or two of defensive ammo in addition to any range stuff you stock which is the perfect time to run through the mags you keep loaded and freshen them up with new ammo. Even my Remington 870 makes a trip to the range to run some buckshot + slugs regularly just to make sure everything is tip top and I remember how to ride that bull.

[Snowgun]

I did a little test regarding bullet setback a while ago and wrote it up here:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=17466&hilit=+bullet


Essentially it finds that SD ammo (in 9mm anyhow) is crimped hard enough that you get deformation at the tip of the hollowpoint from hitting the feed ramp more than bullet setback. The bullets actually got longer!

However, the control, which was ball ammo, showed a frightening tendency to get shorter and shorter....


I was gonna follow this up with soaking rounds in solvent for extended periods of time but then I got a job....

[EJSG19]

As a general rule I'd think it's a good idea to shoot any gun you keep around for defensive purposes every quarter or so (4 times a year) both to keep the ammunition and your skills fresh. I'd figure at least a magazine or two of defensive ammo in addition to any range stuff you stock which is the perfect time to run through the mags you keep loaded and freshen them up with new ammo. Even my Remington 870 makes a trip to the range to run some buckshot + slugs regularly just to make sure everything is tip top and I remember how to ride that bull.

Only shooting your defensive firearm 4 times per year will get you killed.

Sorry, but seeing as we seemed to have lost our resident troll again, somebody has to keep it real around here.

Also.

Riding a bull will get you killed.

RTFM. You are only fooling yourself etc. Thanks for logging in today (wait, I'm pretty sure I'm the first one that said that actually. Reference one of my interactions with said troll for any doubters.)


What you say is wise grasshopper. Just ribbing you a little. But, for the sake of those who need to train/practice more often than quarterly (damn near everybody) I stick to the above. Also, nice thread resurrection.

[yuppiejr]

As a general rule I'd think it's a good idea to shoot any gun you keep around for defensive purposes every quarter or so (4 times a year) both to keep the ammunition and your skills fresh. I'd figure at least a magazine or two of defensive ammo in addition to any range stuff you stock which is the perfect time to run through the mags you keep loaded and freshen them up with new ammo. Even my Remington 870 makes a trip to the range to run some buckshot + slugs regularly just to make sure everything is tip top and I remember how to ride that bull.

Only shooting your defensive firearm 4 times per year will get you killed.

Sorry, but seeing as we seemed to have lost our resident troll again, somebody has to keep it real around here.

Also.

Riding a bull will get you killed.

RTFM. You are only fooling yourself etc. Thanks for logging in today (wait, I'm pretty sure I'm the first one that said that actually. Reference one of my interactions with said troll for any doubters.)


What you say is wise grasshopper. Just ribbing you a little. But, for the sake of those who need to train/practice more often than quarterly (damn near everybody) I stick to the above. Also, nice thread resurrection.

Don't mess with a guy that sets his avatar to a boxing platypus and drinks his coffee out of one of two mugs bearing the acronyms RTFM or WTF daily... ust don't ask me to follow my own advice (after knocking the Lee reloading manual in a separate thread and then asking where I could get load data on cast lead bullets earlier today... for example). Riding a bull only gets you killed if you stick around long enough to get the horns (or get trampled, smashed into a fence or violated like a naughty cow).

I probably have qualified quarterly with "at minimum." In all reality there are a lot of gun owners out there who would likely struggle with that and I think a lot of people who buy guns underestimate the "total cost of ownership" that should go along with it in the form of quality ammunition, regular trips to the range to practice and training. Buying a gun and then throwing it in the nightstand/closet at home for 2 years at a time after you bring it home from the gun shop is fairly common in my experience. Likely it is a 9mm or .40 automatic of some sort loaded up with the remnants of the Magtech FMJ you ran the first time out to the range with the new toy.

[EJSG19]

Don't mess with a guy that sets his avatar to a boxing platypus and drinks his coffee out of one of two mugs bearing the acronyms RTFM or WTF daily... ust don't ask me to follow my own advice (after knocking the Lee reloading manual in a separate thread and then asking where I could get load data on cast lead bullets earlier today... for example). Riding a bull only gets you killed if you stick around long enough to get the horns (or get trampled, smashed into a fence or violated like a naughty cow).

You'll do just fine here.

I probably have qualified quarterly with "at minimum." In all reality there are a lot of gun owners out there who would likely struggle with that and I think a lot of people who buy guns underestimate the "total cost of ownership" that should go along with it in the form of quality ammunition, regular trips to the range to practice and training. Buying a gun and then throwing it in the nightstand/closet at home for 2 years at a time after you bring it home from the gun shop is fairly common in my experience. Likely it is a 9mm or .40 automatic of some sort loaded up with the remnants of the Magtech FMJ you ran the first time out to the range with the new toy.

Yup. Would be some interesting and concerning statistics if only we knew how many people "kept a gun for defense" and also if we knew how each of them do or don't "keep themselves ready for defense with gun or otherwise."

[yuppiejr]

I have one friend who's primary method of practice involves extended sessions of Call of Duty:Black Ops.... I don't think he's alone in thinking this has prepared him for any townhome defense scenario in which his sweet gat may need to be employed to lay down some headshot carnage on a perp wearing a clown suit with the name "TBaggr6969" floating over his head. I've suggested a baseball bat or frying pan as an alternative method of self defense but he pointed out he hasn't unlocked these yet....

[crbutler]

Kind of the opposite experience, but still not that good.

I inherited one of my grandfather's guns. When he brought it, in order to get it, he had to buy a case of the then new 3" mag loads.

Grandpa didn't put much store in magnums, so I got the case, minus 1 box that an uncle used fox hunting way back when. 1 7/8 Oz of #2 lead.

I chrono'd some because they kick more than my new 3 1/2" shells. They clocked about 1600 FPS. Functioned fine, went bang every time, but near as I can tell, the powder has destabilized a bit and they are hotter than they were 40 or so years ago when new. They did kill the everliving daylights out of a cat.

The point is, you never know what will happen with old ammo that was not stored in controlled conditions. I hate to think the kinds of pressures that these shells kick out now with that velocity. If that happened with a hottish pistol round (.357 mag, .40 SW) I suspect that your gun would be nonfunctional from the excess pressures (not necessarily blow anything up, but stick in the chamber etc, is about as bad when you need that carry gun to work...)

[Seismic Sam]

crbutler: was that case by any chance a lot of Canadian loads?? They had a truly notorious reputation for high pressure ammo....

[Norsesmithy]

Kind of the opposite experience, but still not that good.

I inherited one of my grandfather's guns. When he brought it, in order to get it, he had to buy a case of the then new 3" mag loads.

Grandpa didn't put much store in magnums, so I got the case, minus 1 box that an uncle used fox hunting way back when. 1 7/8 Oz of #2 lead.

I chrono'd some because they kick more than my new 3 1/2" shells. They clocked about 1600 FPS. Functioned fine, went bang every time, but near as I can tell, the powder has destabilized a bit and they are hotter than they were 40 or so years ago when new. They did kill the everliving daylights out of a cat.

The point is, you never know what will happen with old ammo that was not stored in controlled conditions. I hate to think the kinds of pressures that these shells kick out now with that velocity. If that happened with a hottish pistol round (.357 mag, .40 SW) I suspect that your gun would be nonfunctional from the excess pressures (not necessarily blow anything up, but stick in the chamber etc, is about as bad when you need that carry gun to work...)

Had the same thing happen to me with some 2 3/4 inch pheasant loads. An old family friend (who now only hunts with flintlocks) gave me 3 50 cal ammo cans full of old 12 gauge shells, and two boxes of paper shelled Western Cartridge pheasant loads were abnormally loud and hard kicking. I was only 13, so I didn't think to crony them, and I shot them all up that summer and fall, but when I was shooting trap with a friend in my pasture, one day, my dad got a call from a neighbor almost a mile away from where we were shooting, who said we were bouncing shot off his windows.

The only pheasant I managed to hit with the stuff (at about 10 yards) was absolutely annihilated. Nothing edible left

[crbutler]

These were/are Winchester/Western shells.

I also had some old Canadian imperials he brought back from a hunting trip- 1 5/8 oz 2 3/4 loads, but they had a note written on the box not to shoot them (of course, I did...) Not quite as obnoxious as these Winchester shells. About 1300 FPS. A true short magnum...