response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

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response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby rugersol on Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:59 am

... apparently the "subject" cuts off, right 'bout there. Image

Not to open a big can of worms ... I think it's already been opened ... and shut, again. Image I'm only posting this as I've actually received a response from the manufacturer ... and figured it was worth sharing. Image

I think most folks 'round here are aware of the whole "0.1gr/0.01g" deallie. Fer thems that ain't, the conversion from grams to grains is 15.4323584 ... and most such scales (if not all) actually weigh in grams, and then do the simple math, to show grains. At which, a scale that measures 0.02g might show (quite accurately) 0.3gr ... but when it measures 0.05g, it would most likely show 0.8gr (0.77, rounded up) ... and when it measures 0.04g, it would most likely show 0.6gr (without dropping places, after conversion, that's 0.617294336). Even if it didn't round, and rather truncated, there would still be an issue with the scale "skipping" tenth grains.

I had called Dillon, who referred me to CED (the manufacturer of the scale). I talked to a couple women, initially ... they weren't making much sense ... and told me to send an email, which I did. That was over 2wk ago ... I finally got a response, yesterday ... here it is:
The current D-Terminator electronic scale is measuring in gram and then convert the reading to grain. The error due to unit conversation will be within +-0.05 grain (equal to 0.003 gram)

No matter how, the error due to unit conversion will always be there. It is just a matter of which unit measure is more important for the application.


Respectfully, Charles Hardy - CED


This may seem like an awkward response ... that's because the question I asked him was ... "is the scale measuring to 0.01g, and then converting to grains, or is it measuring 0.1gr, and converting to grams?" Oddly enough, if the scale accurately measured in 0.1gr, and then converted to grams, and rounded to hunderdths, ya'd see relatively few gaps in the hunderdths for grams, but it would otherwise be accurate to 0.1gr (it would then actually be accurate to 0.00648g, so conversion aside, anyone else happy with 0.01g, would never know the difference). So, by his response (above), even without admitting the "error due to unit conversation", by stating that it measures to 0.01g, and then converts to grains, he's confirmed the "error" ... and in all, has confirmed it, twice.

However, his statement, while he admits there's an "error due to unit conversation" of "+-0.05 grain", is not the whole story. The 0.05gr "error" is simply due to the conversion. As the scale only displays to tenths ... not hunderdths ... you don't get the benefit of seeing when/where this "error" occurs. Instead, you see jumps of 0.2gr, instead of only 0.1gr.

At which, I see this as confirmation from the manufacturer that Dillon's $140 electronic scale (that I was dumb 'nuff to buy, to start with, 'cause it said RIGHT ON IT, was good to "0.1gr" :roll: ), is in fact, not one bit better than any other $30 electronic scale which has the same "error". Point of fact ... you would have to get a scale that's good to 0.005g (technically, roughly 0.00648), in order to get accurate readings to 0.1gr.

I'm in no way suggesting that this "error" isn't otherwise acceptable. If you're loading that hot, you need to be working up slowly, long before that point, and watching for pressure signs. And you could otherwise double or triple the number of drops, and divide back out for an "each" weight.

I'm only suggesting one needn't pay an extra $110.

Anyone who'd like to call "BS" on me, is more 'n welcome to pay me $80 for my "as new" Dillon D-Terminator electronic scale ... an absolute BARGAIN! Image
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Re: response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby mitchx3 on Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:20 am

ahrens wrote:
At which, I see this as confirmation from the manufacturer that Dillon's $140 electronic scale (that I was dumb 'nuff to buy, to start with, 'cause it said RIGHT ON IT, was good to "0.1gr" :roll: ), is in fact, not one bit better than any other $30 electronic scale which has the same "error". Point of fact ... you would have to get a scale that's good to 0.005g (technically, roughly 0.00648), in order to get accurate readings to 0.1gr.
h

I'm only suggesting one needn't pay an extra $110.


You can get the same resolution on ebay/dx for $8. Just thought I'd save people another $22.
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Re: response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby rugersol on Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:22 am

mitchx3 wrote:
ahrens wrote:
At which, I see this as confirmation from the manufacturer that Dillon's $140 electronic scale (that I was dumb 'nuff to buy, to start with, 'cause it said RIGHT ON IT, was good to "0.1gr" :roll: ), is in fact, not one bit better than any other $30 electronic scale which has the same "error". Point of fact ... you would have to get a scale that's good to 0.005g (technically, roughly 0.00648), in order to get accurate readings to 0.1gr.
h

I'm only suggesting one needn't pay an extra $110.


You can get the same resolution on ebay/dx for $8. Just thought I'd save people another $22.

And here I thought Sam'd go ape **** over a $30 electronic scale? Image
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Re: response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby gyrfalcon on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:29 am

I'll trade you for a Lee scale! :D

I'm reporting your comments to Dillon and revoking your blue kool-aid membership!
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Re: response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby DeanC on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:34 am

ahrens wrote:
The current D-Terminator electronic scale is measuring in gram and then convert the reading to grain. The error due to unit conversation will be within +-0.05 grain (equal to 0.003 gram)

No matter how, the error due to unit conversion will always be there. It is just a matter of which unit measure is more important for the application.


Respectfully, Charles Hardy - CED


This may seem like an awkward response ...

I thought it was awkward because of his poor command of the English language.
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Re: response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby rugersol on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:37 am

gyrfalcon wrote:I'll trade you for a Lee scale! :D

I'm reporting your comments to Dillon and revoking your blue kool-aid membership!

I doubt Lee would ever DREAM of makin' a scale werth anywhere NEAR $80. Image

As fer Dillon ... the 2nd time my blue tumbler crapped out, instead of sending it back, again ... I simply got a Lyman (although, I DID splice in the Dillon power-cord ... the one with the switch Image). So, once my D-Terminator's gone, I believe my business with them will be concluded. :mrgreen:

Thank God I didn't buy one of their presses! Image
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Re: response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby rugersol on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:39 am

DeanC wrote:
ahrens wrote:
The current D-Terminator electronic scale is measuring in gram and then convert the reading to grain. The error due to unit conversation will be within +-0.05 grain (equal to 0.003 gram)

No matter how, the error due to unit conversion will always be there. It is just a matter of which unit measure is more important for the application.


Respectfully, Charles Hardy - CED


This may seem like an awkward response ...

I thought it was awkward because of his poor command of the English language.

That's nothin' ... when the 1st woman at CED put the other one on ... I ain't sure what language/accent that was, but I seriously doubt she's from Nebraska. Image
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Re: response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby gyrfalcon on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:47 am

ahrens wrote:As fer Dillon ... the 2nd time my blue tumbler crapped out, instead of sending it back, again ... I simply got a Lyman ([i]although, I DID splice in the Dillon power-cord ... the...


I have nothing but good things to say about the Cabelas vibratory tumbler that's made by Berry's Manufacturing... I currently have a number of them running and pretty shocked they haven't died yet since I'm processing brass at levels that would be considered commercial by most folks.
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Re: response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby nederveit on Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:10 pm

Oops, nevermind, first post jitters or something.
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Re: response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby mitchx3 on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:03 pm

nederveit wrote:Oops, nevermind, first post jitters or something.



WhoTF gave towly a gat?
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Re: response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby Seismic Sam on Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:11 pm

I've said it from the very beginning, which is a LONG time and many posts ago. A specification of .01 gram and 0.1 grain do NOT line up!! The proper combination of accuracies for a scale to be 0.1 grain accuracy is .005 grams!!!

Now, adding to this recently (and very interesting) revealed fact, is that digital scales HAVE to choose an actual number in .01 grams to display. That means that if the weight is not dead nuts on the actual weight (meaning within .001 grams of a two decimal place value) and this will be a rare occurence, the scale has to choose between TWO values. Suppose the actual weight is .001 gram away from being exactly between .01 gram and .02 gram. Then the scale has to pick one value, and based on what I have seen the algorithms for doing this are not very robust compared to a normal three place Ohaus electronic scale. So the scale will pick one number over the other based on some mediocre firmware, and that error translates into .07 grains, which on a 0.1 grain readout, is a full tenth of a grain error. Add that to calculation error itself, and you're looking a a potential error of .2 grains in a lot of cases.

To repeat what I said above, ANY scale that has an accuracy of .01 grams and 0.1 grains is fundamentally flawed in its precision specification, and shouldn't be trusted for a reloading application.

Add to that the sensitivity of an electronic scale to static and flourescent lights, and you're even further out in left field.
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Re: response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby goalie on Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:26 pm

Seismic Sam wrote:I've said it from the very beginning, which is a LONG time and many posts ago. A specification of .01 gram and 0.1 grain do NOT line up!! The proper combination of accuracies for a scale to be 0.1 grain accuracy is .005 grams!!!

Now, adding to this recently (and very interesting) revealed fact, is that digital scales HAVE to choose an actual number in .01 grams to display. That means that if the weight is not dead nuts on the actual weight (meaning within .001 grams of a two decimal place value) and this will be a rare occurence, the scale has to choose between TWO values. Suppose the actual weight is .001 gram away from being exactly between .01 gram and .02 gram. Then the scale has to pick one value, and based on what I have seen the algorithms for doing this are not very robust compared to a normal three place Ohaus electronic scale. So the scale will pick one number over the other based on some mediocre firmware, and that error translates into .07 grains, which on a 0.1 grain readout, is a full tenth of a grain error. Add that to calculation error itself, and you're looking a a potential error of .2 grains in a lot of cases.

To repeat what I said above, ANY scale that has an accuracy of .01 grams and 0.1 grains is fundamentally flawed in its precision specification, and shouldn't be trusted for a reloading application.

Add to that the sensitivity of an electronic scale to static and flourescent lights, and you're even further out in left field.


Sam, what do you think of the DI MXX-123 scale? I got a new one for a really good price and it is still sitting in the box, as I have not needed anything other than my beam scale.
Last edited by goalie on Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby mitchx3 on Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:26 pm

Seismic Sam wrote: the scale has to choose between TWO values.


Not the case if the scale oscillates between two values, you can resolve past the resolution of a scale, even digital.
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Re: response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby RAGGED on Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:20 pm

goalie wrote:
Sam, what do you think of the DI MXX-123 scale? I got a new one for a really good price and it is still sitting in the box, as I have not needed anything other than my beam scale.



I've had mine almost a year and all I can say is keep it! Great tool!
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Re: response from manufacturer on accuracy of Dillon D-Terminato

Postby Seismic Sam on Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:46 pm

Okay, I created a spreadsheet of values in .01 gram increments, and then converted those to 0.1 grain weights, meaning that I calculated the exact grain weight and then rounded off the value to 1 decimal place like the scale does. The results are WAAAYYY worse than I thought they would look like. And remember, ALL the possible gram weights that the scale can measure in this range are represented, so there aren't any holes in the gram data.

Image

So, this is the error JUST from going from .01 gram accuracy to 0.1 grain accuaracy!! Even if the scale is reading the weights absolutely perfectly, this is the error that can NOT be taken out of the system.

Add to that the fact that the scale is going to have problems with weights that are nearly halfway between .01 and .02 (such as.014, .015, .016) and for those weights the scale will report a value in grams that is between .004 and .006 grams off the real value.

Then add to that additional error from static electricity and noise from flourescent lights, and possibly drafts. (Note, if there is a draft with a beam balance, you can SEE it. With a digital, you probably won't!)

Add that all together, and you have a real mess on your hands.

NOTE: In 52 gram data points, I count no less than 29 skips in the calculated grain weight!!! That's over a 50% rate of the grain data being mis-reported just from the calculation roundoff from the gram weight!! To put it another way, in a series of 52 linear gram weights that are .01 grams apart, there are 29 grain weights that the scale will NEVER show on its readout!!

Oh, and a BIG congrats to ahrens for doing the diligence and posting on this!!!
Last edited by Seismic Sam on Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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