Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

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Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby BigDog58 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:01 pm

Ok, here is my situation. This is the first time I have reloaded (or tried so far) .380 using my Loadmaster Progressive press. I have loaded plenty of 9mm but no .380.

I am loading the following:

Sierra 90 gr JHP Bullets in Cleaned, Resized, and Hand Primed Range Brass (Mixed head stamps) I have verified the bullets are exactly .355"

I am having trouble with the loaded rounds fitting into a Case Gauge. I happen to have Two (L.E. Wilson and a Lyman)and getting the same results from both.

When I have a completed round, they will only go in about 9/10's and will not go flush. If I check the resized cases BEFORE I flare, dump powder, seat bullet and Factory Crimp, the resized cases fit flush, and properly seated in the gauge. After seating the bullet to an OAL of .965" 9 out of 10 will not sit flush in the gauges (I am holding the gauges in my hand, not placed on the bench, so it isn't a length problem.

I have tried, resizing, belling more, belling less. Crimping more, crimping less. I have changed to a OAL of .970" down to .960", all, with the same results.

I was using a brand new set of Lee Dies, so I even changed the die set to an older PROVEN set (I've loaded several hundred .380 rounds using the old die set with my Lee Classic Turret press with no issues), to rule put a possible bad die.

If anyone has a suggestion or solution, I'm all ears. Feel free to post here, PM me or even BETTER, Call me 952-928-9 three five two (I will be away from 6:00pm until about 8:30 but feel free to call as late as midnight).

I have NEVER ran into this problem before. My only solution is to try and go back to using my Classic Turret press to load .380 (Note: I am using the Lee Loadmaster Shell Plate # 4AS ) .

I hope someone has an answer before my wife makes me sleep outside for yelling and cussing so loudly at my press/ammo... :badmood:
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Re: Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby rugersol on Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:15 pm

It's been a while, and I didn't load that many, but I remember settin the dies was a real PITA!

IIRC, I had to play with the seat/crimp to get it where it'd crimp enough ... but a RCH more, and it would basically crush the case, forcing it out a bit ... so it wouldn't chamber!

... may er may not be yer issue ... if it is, raise yer crimp to where ya can push the bullet in between yer thumb n finger ... then go 1/8 turn at a time ... check chambering fer EVERY adjustment ... when it stops chambering, back it out 1/8 turn!
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Re: Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby MaryB on Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:04 pm

Al ears on this, I will be starting to reload 380 in a month or so, getting dies next month, need to order a case length gauge... need a good bullet mold for 380, any suggestions?
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Re: Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby Rip Van Winkle on Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:15 pm

I suspect Rugersol has the solution.

I gave up reloading .380 ACP years ago because I got tired of chasing and loading the pip-squeak brass.

One more thing you may want to check is the case wall thickness. SAMMI gives a case diameter (at the mouth) of .373", which with a .355 bullet only allows for .009" of case wall thickness.

Just for giggles, I measured a Rem. Golden Saber round I have laying around. The bullet diameter is closer to .351" and the case diameter (at the mouth) is .372".
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Re: Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby BigDog58 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:33 pm

rugersol wrote:It's been a while, and I didn't load that many, but I remember settin the dies was a real PITA!

IIRC, I had to play with the seat/crimp to get it where it'd crimp enough ... but a RCH more, and it would basically crush the case, forcing it out a bit ... so it wouldn't chamber!

... may er may not be yer issue ... if it is, raise yer crimp to where ya can push the bullet in between yer thumb n finger ... then go 1/8 turn at a time ... check chambering fer EVERY adjustment ... when it stops chambering, back it out 1/8 turn!



I seat and crimp with different dies. I use the seating die ONLY for setting OAL and then use the Factory Crimp.

What has me most puzzled is the fact the cases fit perfectly in the Case Gauge immediately after resizing, but after seating and crimping the bullet the rim of the case sits above flush in the gauge. I even switched back to the older set of dies (I know they worked perfectly with my Turret press) and I'm getting the same results. I'm beginning to think it might be a combination of the bullet diameter and the wall thickness of the cases. Unfortunately, I don't yet own a micrometer capable of acurately measuring wall thickness. When I previously loaded 380 I was waiting on delivery of my case gauges. A friend, SigP240 brought over several .380's and I used their barrels to make sure the rounds fit properly. I would suspect a faulty case gauge, but it's happening in two different brands. A L.E. Wilson and a Lyman.

The last rounds I loaded that appeared to fit I used 115gr Berry's Plated bullets. I would have thought a Sierra 90gr JHP would have better tolerances. I think I'll try loading some 115gr plated and see if I'm getting the same results?

I appreciate everyone's help. If I can't solve this I will call Lee tech support Monday and see if they can help. I might also revert to the turret press, using these dies, and see if the problem duplicates. If it doesn't, I wonder if it could be the Shell Plate vs Shell Holder difference?

Stumped Dog :cry:
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Re: Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby Rip Van Winkle on Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:51 pm

Have you tried chambering one of these rounds in the barrel to see if it works?
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Re: Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby BigDog58 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:38 pm

These loads are for a relative and unfortunately I don't own a .380. I have contacted a nearby friend and hopefully he will allow me to use his barrel/gun to see if they fit properly. What really irks me is the fact the empty resized brass fits both gauges perfectly. I don't run into a "fit" problem until the round is loaded.

I have disassembled all rounds that didn't fit the gauges, checking my bullets for signs of over crimping, of which they were fine, withno signs of an over crimp. When I check them with calipers, the dimensions fall within spec's as far as I can determine.

This is only my second time loading .380 (loaded 500 rds first time with no problems) but the first time I loaded them with my new progressive press. I even went to Lee's website to make 100% sure that I have the correct shell plate. I went as far as using brake cleaner and a bore brush on the gauges to make certain there wasn't any lube or foreign particles inside. If I didn't know better, I would think the gauges aren't milled properly, but what's the chance of two different brands being wrong? None, to my thinking. And, after resizing, the empty brass fits just fine, and the bullets
measure .355 ( book says .356" max)

So, I'm at a standstill until I either discover the problem, can verify rounds fitting properly in a gun,
or advice from Lee, L.E Wilson or Lyman on Monday.




I guess I'll load some 9mm until I can get more detailed help. :busy: :paper: :doh:
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Re: Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby MaryB on Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:46 pm

To Bad it is such a long drive for me to get up there, could test on my Walther.
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Re: Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby Rip Van Winkle on Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:00 pm

Alright, I'm confused. You have said you've measured the bullets and they're .355". Then you said you didn't have anyway to measure the case wall thickness, and now you say you checked the dimensions with your caliper and "as best as you can tell" everything is within spec.

So is it or isn't it?

Maybe we need to start over.

When you stick the cartridge into the gage how far does it go in? Not at all? Half way? or almost all the way?

If your measurements are within the specifications below, the cartridge should fit.

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Re: Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby BigDog58 on Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:23 pm

I'm sorry for the confusion. I meant I don't have a "Ball Micrometer" that would allow me to properly check the wall thicknesses. I can check at the mouth of the case but not lower inside.

When I try a resized case (just the case) in the gauge, it fits fine and drops in flush.

After loading the round drops in about 7/8 of the way with the rim above the gauge (as if head spacing is off). This happens with about 8 out of 10 rds (approx).

A friend brought over a .380 auto to let me test the rounds fitting into the chamber/barrel, and to drop in freely with No Binding. I know the barrel tolerances are less than the gauges.

I have measured the loaded rounds according to the diagram you posted (using both a dial and a digital caliper) and it all seems to check within specs.

I tried blackening a round with magic marker and the only apparent "rub" marks appear on the ogive (approximately) of the projectile, protruding from the case.

Note: some rounds simply drop into to gauge perfectly.

I disassembled all the loaded rounds I loaded and DID find I had over crimped some. I have since corrected that (verified by disassembling) and I get less problem rounds (about 6 of 10).

I have noticed that there is a definite difference between the dimensions of the Lyman and the L.E. Wilson gauges. The Lyman seems tighter.

So, we are going to take 6 rounds and try firing them through the .380 we used to check case clearance. From simple racking the slide and allowing the rounds to chamber, all appears fine. No problem ejecting loaded rounds, no problem with the next round loading.


I have talked with several other loaders (including Oldman) and no one seems to have any ideas other than those I've tried. The only other thing I can think of, would be to get one of the EGW undersize dies or possibly running the brass through a debulging process, even though there is NO visual or dimensional evidence of bulging. As I stated, resized cases (no powder no bullet) fit perfectly into the gauge. I only have a problem after loading the round.

Thanks for everyone's help. This is the first time a pistol round has given me trouble and had me totally stumped :surrender:
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Re: Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby Rip Van Winkle on Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:03 am

One last thought.

Could it be your bullets aren't seating squarely? With as tight of tolerances as the .380 has it would only take a few thousands off axis to screw things up.

If your willing to try an experiment, when your seating the bullet, seat it about half way, than turn the cartridge 180 deg and seat it the rest of the way.

Other than that, if you have or know someone who has a concentricity gage, you could check the bullet run out.

I've never had to check a pistol round before but stranger things have happened.
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Re: Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby thunderoussilence on Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:31 pm

I will buy you a box of .380 if ya need it. I got ya back yo.


Peace

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Re: Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby Seismic Sam on Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:46 pm

Alright, does Lee make a .380 FCD die?? That might cure a few tenths of a mil of eccentricity, and/or square things up.

BTW - You need a effen 10 rod surveyor's tape to measure MY eccentricity!!

I'm not gonna run with any ball micrometer jokes, but it's a little hard to keep a straight face when you use those two words together... :P :P :P
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Re: Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby LS3Miata on Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:33 pm

Jim, this may be a long shot, but is this different brass than what you previously loaded and/or does the problem occur with a specific headstamp. I had a similar problem last year reloading 9mm. About 10-20% of my loads would fail the plunk test.

After much research, I found the problem was occurring with 9mm CBC brass. Sorted that brass out, no more problem. I still don't know why the CBC brass fails, have yet to figure it out.
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Re: Need .380 Auto Loading Advice

Postby BigDog58 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:11 pm

thunderoussilence wrote:I will buy you a box of .380 if ya need it. I got ya back yo.


Peace

Declan



Thank you brother, but I have to get this figured out. I've spent days researching this and still looking.

Take care my friend,

Jim
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