Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

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Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby hammAR on Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:57 pm

Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police
Aug 17, 2:33 PM (ET)
By ESTES THOMPSON

Troops training for and fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are firing more than 1 billion bullets a year, contributing to ammunition shortages hitting police departments nationwide and preventing some officers from training with the weapons they carry on patrol.

An Associated Press review of dozens of police and sheriff's departments found that many are struggling with delays of as long as a year for both handgun and rifle ammunition. And the shortages are resulting in prices as much as double what departments were paying just a year ago.

"There were warehouses full of it. Now, that isn't the case," said Al Aden, police chief in Pierre, S.D.

Departments in all parts of the country reported delays or reductions in training and, in at least one case, a proposal to use paint-ball guns in firing drills as a way to conserve real ammo.

Forgoing proper, repetitive weapons training comes with a price on the streets, police say, in diminished accuracy, quickness on the draw and basic decision-making skills.

"You are not going to be as sharp or as good, especially if an emergency situation comes up," said Sgt. James MacGillis, range master for the Milwaukee police. "The better-trained officer is the one that is less likely to use force."

The pinch is blamed on a skyrocketing demand for ammunition that followed the start of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, driven by the training needs of a military at war, and, ironically, police departments raising their own practice regiments following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. The increasingly voracious demand for copper and lead overseas, especially in China, has also been a factor.

The military is in no danger of running out because it gets the overwhelming majority of its ammunition from a dedicated plant outside Kansas City. But police are at the mercy of commercial manufacturers.

None of the departments surveyed by the AP said they had pulled guns off the street, and many departments reported no problems buying ammunition. But others told the AP they face higher prices and months-long delays.

In Oklahoma City, for example, officers cannot qualify with AR-15 rifles because the department does not have enough .223-caliber ammunition - a round similar to that fired by the military's M-16 and M4 rifles. Last fall, an ammunition shortage forced the department to cancel qualification courses for several different guns.

"We've got to teach the officers how to use the weapon, and they've got to be able to go to the range and qualify with the weapon and show proficiency," said department spokesman Capt. Steve McCool. "And you can't do that unless you have the rounds."

In Milwaukee, supplies of .40-caliber handgun bullets and .223-caliber rifle rounds have gotten so low the department has repeatedly dipped into its ammunition reserves. Some weapons training has already been cut by 30 percent, and lessons on rifles have been altered to conserve bullets.

Unlike troops in an active war zone, patrol officers rarely fire their weapons in the line of duty. Even then, an officer in a firefight isn't likely to shoot more than a dozen rounds, said Asheville, N.C., police training officer Lt. Gary Gudac. That, he said, makes training with live ammunition for real-life situations - such as a vehicle stop - so essential.

"We spend a lot of money and time making sure the officers are able to shoot a moving target or shoot back into a vehicle," Gudac said. "Any time we have a deadly force encounter, one of the first things we pull is the officer's qualification records."

In Trenton, N.J., a lack of available ammunition led the city to give up plans to convert its force to .45-caliber handguns. Last year, the sheriff's department in Bergen County, N.J., had to borrow 26,000 rounds of .40-caliber ammunition to complete twice-a-year training for officers.

"Now we're planning at least a year and a half, even two years in advance," said Bergen County Detective David Macey, a firearms examiner.

In Phoenix, an order for .38-caliber rounds placed a year ago has yet to arrive, meaning no officer can currently qualify with a .38 Special revolver.

"We got creative in how we do in training," said Sgt. Bret Draughn, who supervises the department's ammunition purchases. "We had to cut out extra practice sessions. We cut back in certain areas so we don't have to cut out mandatory training."

In Wyoming, the state leaned on its ammunition suppler earlier this year so every state trooper could qualify on the standard-issue AR-15 rifle, said Capt. Bill Morse. Rifle rounds scheduled to arrive in January did not show up until May, leading to a rush of troopers trying to qualify by the deadline.

"We didn't (initially) have enough ammunition to qualify everybody in the state," Morse said.

In Indianapolis, police spokesman Lt. Jeff Duhamell said the department has enough ammunition for now, but is considering using paint balls during a two-week training course, during which recruits fire normally fire about 1,000 rounds each.

"It's all based on the demands in Iraq," Duhamell said. "A lot of the companies are trying to keep up with the demands of the war and the demands of training police departments. The price increased too - went up 15 to 20 percent - and they were advising us ... to order as much as you can."

Higher prices are common. In Madison, Wis., police Sgt. Lauri Schwartz said the city spent $40,000 on ammunition in 2004, a figure that rose to $53,000 this year. The department is budgeting for prices 22 percent higher in 2008. In Arkansas, Fort Smith police now pay twice as much as they did last year for 500-round cases of .40-caliber ammunition.

"We really don't have a lot of choices," Cpl. Mikeal Bates said. "In our profession, we have to have it."

The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in Independence, Mo., directly supplies the military with more than 80 percent of its small-arms ammunition. Production at the factory has more than tripled since 2002, rising from roughly 425 million rounds that year to 1.4 billion rounds in 2006, according to the Joint Munitions Command at the Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois.

Most of the rest of the military's small-arms ammunition comes from Falls Church, Va.-based General Dynamics Corp. (GD), which relies partly on subcontractors - some of whom also supply police departments. Right now, their priority is filling the military's orders, said Darren Newsom, general manager of The Hunting Shack in Stevensville, Mont., which ships 250,000 rounds a day as it supplies ammunition to 3,000 police departments nationwide.

"There's just a major shortage on ammo in the U.S. right now," he said, pointing to his current backorder for 2.5 million rounds of .223-caliber ammunition. "It's just terrible."

Police say the .223-caliber rifle round is generally the hardest to find. Even though rounds used by the military are not exactly the same as those sold to police, they are made from the same metals and often using the same equipment.

Alliant Techsystems Inc. (ATK), which runs the Lake City plant for the Army, also produced more than 5 billion rounds for hunting and police use last year, making the Edina, Minn.-based company the country's largest ammunition manufacturer. Spokesman Bryce Hallowell questioned whether the Iraq war had a direct effect on the ammunition available to police, but said there was no doubt that surging demand was affecting supply.

"We had looked at this and didn't know if it was an anomaly or a long-term trend," Hallowell said. "We started running plants 24/7. Now we think it is long-term, so we're going to build more production capability."

That unrelenting demand for ammunition will continue to put a premium on planning ahead, said Maricopa County, Ariz., Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who so far has kept his department from experiencing any shortage-related problems.

"If we have a problem, I'll go make an issue of it - if I have to go to Washington or the military," Arpaio said. "That is a serious thing ... if you don't have the firepower to protect the public and yourself."
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Re: Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby Aceq2jot on Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:16 pm

Thank go i stocked up on the 223 a while back when it was a couple of hundred for a thousand :D
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Re: Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby hammAR on Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:58 pm

Early last year I decided to stock up on 223 stuff - and bought a ******* of it.

http://www.botac.com had 1200 rounds of IMI (Israeli Military Industries) 5.56 mil-spec ammo for $189.00 shipped. This is also worthy of SHTF stash. This comes packaged in 30 round boxes. Thirty round mags, thirty round boxes, quite convenient. This was a really good deal.

Also filled up on Lake City XM-193 ammo. Wholesale Hunter had Federal XM193 55gr for $84.75 plus shipping for 500 rounds. http://www.wholesalehunter.com/privates ... /deals.htm. Also, I bought a 500rnd case of Federal XM193 for $99.00 shipped from http://www.cmmginc.com.

For consistency sake I will take the Winchester Q3131A over the LC stuff. Just my humble opinion. Winchester Q3131A is mil-spec ammo manufactured in Israel for Winchester, super ammo at an affordable price. Some will tell you that Winchester Q3131, which is made in the US, is the same as the Q3131A, not true from my experience. The Q3131A is a hotter load and is sealed. This is my first choice for SHTF stash ammo.

Of course all of the 308 stuff is hand loaded and there is more than a few down stairs.

Good Luck and good shooting!!
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Re: Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby Fast351 on Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:20 am

I honestly don't see how the war is causing shortages of anything but .223. That and maybe some 9mm is the only major ammo calibers the military uses.

Now of course the price of ammo is going up. But unless production lines have been converted from 40 to .223 for example, I don't see how capacity for the other calibers has been reduced.

Frankly I'm surprised ammo has remained as cheap as it has. You can still buy cases of 9mm for 150 if you shop around, and .223 can still be had in the $240 range if you don't mind shooting steel cased stuff.

I think 45 ACP has been hit the hardest because it contains the most metal. Even that is still found for 230/case occasionally.

Another round of price increases is coming September 1st though, buy what you can as soon as you can, the prices are only going to keep going up in the foreseeable future.

Me, I'm looking forward to the day we're "done" with major conflicts, and the surplus ammo market gets flooded with dirt cheap .223. I might be dreaming :)
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Re: Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby jac714 on Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:46 am

Fast351 wrote:I honestly don't see how the war is causing shortages of anything but .223. That and maybe some 9mm is the only major ammo calibers the military uses.

Now of course the price of ammo is going up. But unless production lines have been converted from 40 to .223 for example, I don't see how capacity for the other calibers has been reduced.

Frankly I'm surprised ammo has remained as cheap as it has. You can still buy cases of 9mm for 150 if you shop around, and .223 can still be had in the $240 range if you don't mind shooting steel cased stuff.

I think 45 ACP has been hit the hardest because it contains the most metal. Even that is still found for 230/case occasionally.

Another round of price increases is coming September 1st though, buy what you can as soon as you can, the prices are only going to keep going up in the foreseeable future.

Me, I'm looking forward to the day we're "done" with major conflicts, and the surplus ammo market gets flooded with dirt cheap .223. I might be dreaming :)


I think you might be dreaming on that one, :) but the nature of the continuing conflict looks like another cold war so there will be the stock rotation surplus mil-surp available.

Putin just announced that the Russian Air Force will start flying long distance patrols again. This is where we were in the late 80's with the US adn Russia (under the guise of the USSR) a hair trigger away from all out war.
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Re: Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby joelr on Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:52 am

jac714 wrote:
Fast351 wrote:I honestly don't see how the war is causing shortages of anything but .223. That and maybe some 9mm is the only major ammo calibers the military uses.

Now of course the price of ammo is going up. But unless production lines have been converted from 40 to .223 for example, I don't see how capacity for the other calibers has been reduced.

Frankly I'm surprised ammo has remained as cheap as it has. You can still buy cases of 9mm for 150 if you shop around, and .223 can still be had in the $240 range if you don't mind shooting steel cased stuff.

I think 45 ACP has been hit the hardest because it contains the most metal. Even that is still found for 230/case occasionally.

Another round of price increases is coming September 1st though, buy what you can as soon as you can, the prices are only going to keep going up in the foreseeable future.

Me, I'm looking forward to the day we're "done" with major conflicts, and the surplus ammo market gets flooded with dirt cheap .223. I might be dreaming :)


I think you might be dreaming on that one, :) but the nature of the continuing conflict looks like another cold war so there will be the stock rotation surplus mil-surp available.

Putin just announced that the Russian Air Force will start flying long distance patrols again. This is where we were in the late 80's with the US adn Russia (under the guise of the USSR) a hair trigger away from all out war.

Probably worth rereading Heinlein's "Solution Unsatisfactory," at this point, and noticing that the situation, now, has for decades been worse than in the story . . . even before the unsatisfactory solution.
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Re: Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby hammAR on Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:34 am

Fast351 wrote:I honestly don't see how the war is causing shortages of anything but .223. That and maybe some 9mm is the only major ammo calibers the military uses.


7.62mm NATO (7.62 x 51mm) is utilized in the following weapon systems M134, M240, M14, M40, M21,and M24 to name a few. The M134 (Dillon Gattling gun) and M240 (B & G) are both machine guns and are used on most vehicles, aircraft, as well as ground troops. The others are dispersed throughout and have a limited use, except for the M14 which is getting more popular and widely issued, but they all use 7.62mm NATO too.

Also, consider that most of our Allies all use 7.62mm NATO exclusively.

And of course OPFOR uses 7.62 x39 and 7.62 x 54, which also affects shortages and price.

This is not intended as a critique, but information purposes..............
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Re: Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby Fast351 on Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:51 am

You're right, I forgot about NATO 308 ammo, but most PDs are training with .40, 9 and some 45. What surprises me is that PDs are having problems finding that type of ammo when I am not. Granted they need more of it, but places like Gander, SW, Cabelas, Fleet Farm, etc, don't seem to be having problems getting their shelves filled.

Not saying that the situation doesn't exist, but I find it curious.
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Re: Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby joelr on Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:06 am

Fast351 wrote:You're right, I forgot about NATO 308 ammo, but most PDs are training with .40, 9 and some 45. What surprises me is that PDs are having problems finding that type of ammo when I am not. Granted they need more of it, but places like Gander, SW, Cabelas, Fleet Farm, etc, don't seem to be having problems getting their shelves filled.

Not saying that the situation doesn't exist, but I find it curious.
Just hypothetically, if you were a manufacturer/distributor, and you could ship/sell all the ammo you can make/get right now, but know that won't last forever . . . would you be more tempted, all in all, to fill orders from long-time, small-margin customers who can't easily go find a substitute supplier, for various reasons, or from long-time, larger-margin customers who think of ammo, to some extent, as a commodity that they can get from anybody?
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Re: Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby White Horseradish on Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:20 am

Nothing curious about it. PD's have a set process they have to follow, like any government agency buying anything. They are likely limited to certain vendors as a matter of policy. Plus, they probably have pricing very different from Gander and Walmart.
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Re: Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby hammAR on Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:24 am

Are you guys talking about marketing-supply and demand, or like supply side economics, or like the oil companies. I thought that artificially creating market demand by collusion was illegal.....sorry undocumented...... :twisted:

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Re: Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby joelr on Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:27 am

hammAR wrote:Are you guys talking about marketing-supply and demand, or like supply side economics, or like the oil companies. I thought that artificially creating market demand by collusion was illegal.....sorry undocumented...... :twisted:

.

I dunno about them, but I'm talking about market economies in "imperfect" markets. That's what I live in, after all.
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Re: Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby Pinnacle on Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:10 pm

Look at thepricing of commodity metals.... Copper is at an all time high...

Why is ATK going to make civilian ammunition when they can sell all that they can make to Uncle Sam?

If you notice - almost all 223 is coming with crimped primer pockets... I wonder whay that is? hummmm.
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Re: Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby joelr on Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:04 pm

hammAR wrote:Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police
Aug 17, 2:33 PM (ET)
By ESTES THOMPSON

...

Higher prices are common. In Madison, Wis., police Sgt. Lauri Schwartz said the city spent $40,000 on ammunition in 2004, a figure that rose to $53,000 this year. The department is budgeting for prices 22 percent higher in 2008. In Arkansas, Fort Smith police now pay twice as much as they did last year for 500-round cases of .40-caliber ammunition.

Sure. If they go into the free market like everybody else -- proffering credit cards and/or checks, say, rather than purchase orders to city-approved budget specs -- they can buy what they have they budget for. What they can't get, with the manufacturers running full, err, blast, is favorable prices at pay-when-our-AP-department-gets-a-round-tuit conditions, at least not until manufacturing capacity catches up, if it does. (My guess is that it won't; heavy investment in manufacturing facilities for what the market perceives as a short-term, err, surge is unlikely.)

Components don't seem to be horribly expensive, though. A creative department might take a cop who is unable to do street duty -- a guy with bunged up knees, say (not, say, Duy; he's only got one working arm) -- teach him to run a Dillon 650, say, have him spend four hours/work day turning out a very comfortably slow 500 rounds per hour (given that equipment), and the rest of his work week depriming, cleaning, and sorting cases, along with the occasional trip to the computer to order more components. At 10,000 / work week, that's half a million rounds of practice ammo/year, which is going to be enough for quite a few ten-box full-tilt-boogie range days, much less a quarterly 50 round qual.

ETA: and it's very green, which would go over well in the metro. "We're not just bringing cases back to the recycler -- we're recycling them ourselves!"

(Just to give an idea of the scale, that's rather more than 500/rounds per officer for the MPD, which is the largest city department in the state. Run the Dillon 650 for eight hours per workday -- yes, that'll take more than one guy, on average -- to double that, or upgrade to a professional-grade 1050, and you're up to a million rounds/year. Do both, and you're up to two million rounds/year.)
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Re: Ammunition Shortage Squeezes Police

Postby macphisto on Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:21 pm

It's a Pinnacle sandwich with Joel as the bread! It gives me hope for the future.
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