Some cases just won't size down far enough?

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Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby crbutler on Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:34 pm

Actually Sam, the reason that USPSA went to allowing 9x19 as major was because there are some factory loads that do make major. This worked out as they lowered the power floor to 165 (from 175)-

As I recall, there was a Cor Bon 124gr +P+ load that made it, a couple of LEO heavier bullet loads, as well as most of the NATO SMG ammo (that you shouldn't shoot in a standard handgun...)

Most of the competition handloads are loaded long (Warner's weren't as he was trying to use a Glock) and are not that ugly pressure wise unless the shooter has some sort of hybrid comped barrel.

I don't disagree that using someone's questionable brass is a bad idea, but don't blanket condemn 9 major as unsafe- it isn't (if you know what you are doing...and you are shooting a gun made to stand up to it.)
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Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby Bessy on Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:02 am

crbutler wrote:Actually Sam, the reason that USPSA went to allowing 9x19 as major was because there are some factory loads that do make major. This worked out as they lowered the power floor to 165 (from 175)-

As I recall, there was a Cor Bon 124gr +P+ load that made it, a couple of LEO heavier bullet loads, as well as most of the NATO SMG ammo (that you shouldn't shoot in a standard handgun...)

Most of the competition handloads are loaded long (Warner's weren't as he was trying to use a Glock) and are not that ugly pressure wise unless the shooter has some sort of hybrid comped barrel.

I don't disagree that using someone's questionable brass is a bad idea, but don't blanket condemn 9 major as unsafe- it isn't (if you know what you are doing...and you are shooting a gun made to stand up to it.)


1. As far as I know USPSA does not have cartridge restrictions, only caliber restrictions, they never explicitly allowed 9x19, they simply said in OPEN you can shoot .355 projectiles and make major. 9mm major is relatively new, before that people ran 38 super, or any of the other numerous alternatives. Many still do because loading for 9mm major can be a little touchy.

2. If you find me a 9mm factory round that makes major I will eat my shorts. Most people who are loading 9mm major are loading long because they have to, otherwise their isn't enough case volume for all the powder. Even loading long every 9mm load I've played with was compressed. Your selection of powders is really limited with 9mm major.

3. While I've never seen tim's setup, every other open glock shooter I have seen was running an after market fully supported barrel. I find the proposition that you could load a 9mm cartridge to major, and keep a C.O.L. anywhere near book length doubtful. I'm not sure how a compensated barrel would increase your chamber pressure (it wouldn't), but shooting open without a comp is like bringing a geo metro at the race track . You can do it but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

4. I agree that 9mm major is entirely safe if done correctly, that being said most open shooters I meet shooting 9mm major leave their brass lie.
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Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby Keith on Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:30 am

Bessy wrote:
crbutler wrote:Actually Sam, the reason that USPSA went to allowing 9x19 as major was because there are some factory loads that do make major. This worked out as they lowered the power floor to 165 (from 175)-

As I recall, there was a Cor Bon 124gr +P+ load that made it, a couple of LEO heavier bullet loads, as well as most of the NATO SMG ammo (that you shouldn't shoot in a standard handgun...)

Most of the competition handloads are loaded long (Warner's weren't as he was trying to use a Glock) and are not that ugly pressure wise unless the shooter has some sort of hybrid comped barrel.

I don't disagree that using someone's questionable brass is a bad idea, but don't blanket condemn 9 major as unsafe- it isn't (if you know what you are doing...and you are shooting a gun made to stand up to it.)


1. As far as I know USPSA does not have cartridge restrictions, only caliber restrictions, they never explicitly allowed 9x19, they simply said in OPEN you can shoot .355 projectiles and make major. 9mm major is relatively new, before that people ran 38 super, or any of the other numerous alternatives. Many still do because loading for 9mm major can be a little touchy.

2. If you find me a 9mm factory round that makes major I will eat my shorts. Most people who are loading 9mm major are loading long because they have to, otherwise their isn't enough case volume for all the powder. Even loading long every 9mm load I've played with was compressed. Your selection of powders is really limited with 9mm major.

3. While I've never seen tim's setup, every other open glock shooter I have seen was running an after market fully supported barrel. I find the proposition that you could load a 9mm cartridge to major, and keep a C.O.L. anywhere near book length doubtful. I'm not sure how a compensated barrel would increase your chamber pressure (it wouldn't), but shooting open without a comp is like bringing a geo metro at the race track . You can do it but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

4. I agree that 9mm major is entirely safe if done correctly, that being said most open shooters I meet shooting 9mm major leave their brass lie.


For what it's worth, Winchester Ranger 127 +P+ makes major out of my Glock 34. (don't remember the actual chrono numbers) Don't think I tried it out of my G17 but it did not make major out of my G19.
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Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby Bessy on Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:36 am

Keith wrote:
Bessy wrote:
crbutler wrote:Actually Sam, the reason that USPSA went to allowing 9x19 as major was because there are some factory loads that do make major. This worked out as they lowered the power floor to 165 (from 175)-

As I recall, there was a Cor Bon 124gr +P+ load that made it, a couple of LEO heavier bullet loads, as well as most of the NATO SMG ammo (that you shouldn't shoot in a standard handgun...)

Most of the competition handloads are loaded long (Warner's weren't as he was trying to use a Glock) and are not that ugly pressure wise unless the shooter has some sort of hybrid comped barrel.

I don't disagree that using someone's questionable brass is a bad idea, but don't blanket condemn 9 major as unsafe- it isn't (if you know what you are doing...and you are shooting a gun made to stand up to it.)


1. As far as I know USPSA does not have cartridge restrictions, only caliber restrictions, they never explicitly allowed 9x19, they simply said in OPEN you can shoot .355 projectiles and make major. 9mm major is relatively new, before that people ran 38 super, or any of the other numerous alternatives. Many still do because loading for 9mm major can be a little touchy.

2. If you find me a 9mm factory round that makes major I will eat my shorts. Most people who are loading 9mm major are loading long because they have to, otherwise their isn't enough case volume for all the powder. Even loading long every 9mm load I've played with was compressed. Your selection of powders is really limited with 9mm major.

3. While I've never seen tim's setup, every other open glock shooter I have seen was running an after market fully supported barrel. I find the proposition that you could load a 9mm cartridge to major, and keep a C.O.L. anywhere near book length doubtful. I'm not sure how a compensated barrel would increase your chamber pressure (it wouldn't), but shooting open without a comp is like bringing a geo metro at the race track . You can do it but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

4. I agree that 9mm major is entirely safe if done correctly, that being said most open shooters I meet shooting 9mm major leave their brass lie.


For what it's worth, Winchester Ranger 127 +P+ makes major out of my Glock 34. (don't remember the actual chrono numbers) Don't think I tried it out of my G17 but it did not make major out of my G19.



Ranger 127 +P+ claims 1250 which works out to 158 pf. I think that's out a 4 or 5 inch barrel. Most open guns are effectively 4 inch guns with the comp. You get much longer than that, and the compesator losses some of it's effectiveness. The other twist here, is that just barely making 165 isn't enough. You really want to pushing around 170 for a little chronograph insurance. The open guys I run with usually are trying to make 172-175. Is it technically possible to make major... maybe with a 6 inch non-ported weapon. Is running factory ammo practical for a uspsa shooter trying to be competitive in open with 9x19 ? I'd say no way.
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Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby Seismic Sam on Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:32 am

Just to be clear, I'm not condemning 9mm Major itself - IF done correctly, you can keep the pressures down (more or less) and shoot it in guns with full support barrels, although it's kind of telling that a lot of 9mm Major shooters leave their brass lie or color it so somebody else doesn't pick it up. The fact that 9mm Major brass isn't usually shot twice is pretty convincing proof that this load is on the very edge of being safe.

What I AM warning people about as being a fast trip to hell in a bucket is trying to develop their own 9mm Major loads without some very specific guidance from somebody else who has done it, and if you simply work up in powder weight like normal you are asking for real trouble. I'm not going to go into the specifics, but the reason a 9mm Major load works rather than blowing up your gun is the opposite of what you might think, so DON'T TRY IT ON YOUR OWN!! Tim did tell me what powder he used and how he kept the pressure down, but IIRC, at some point in developing his loads he did have a kaboom and blew a mag clean out of one of his Glocks, so doing this is not a cake walk even if you finally succeed.
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