Some cases just won't size down far enough?

A place to discuss calibers, ammunition, and reloading

Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby andrewP on Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:57 pm

I recently had a problem with a 9mm case (headstamp 9x19 C J 92) not sizing down enough to pass the "plunk" test. I loaded it, the loaded round failed the test, pulled the bullet, tried sizing it again and reloading it, and the loaded round failed again. At this point, I started to wonder if the case itself was out of spec, and lo and behold, after sizing it again, the case itself, with no bullet in it, failed the plunk test! (In each case, it appeared to drop into the chamber ok, but would not spin freely.) After this, I got out the calipers, and the mouth of the case seems to be in spec, but the base is a few thousandths too big. (Spec is .391" and this case measures .395") Is this case junk, or is it one of those times when something like an EGW "U" sizing die would be beneficial? I'm currently using an RCBS sizing die, which has been fine through several thousand rounds of loading.

Obviously I'm not going to buy a new sizing die in order to avoid scrapping one case, but I'm curious as to whether others have had similar experiences.
andrewP
 
Posts: 608 [View]
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:50 am
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby igofast on Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:35 pm

Range brass or some of your known history brass? Reason I ask is some of the USPSA guys are pushing 9mm to major power factor(weight*velocity/1000 > 165). +P+ is generally considered 115gr @ 1400 FPS - which still doesn't make major. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near that brass afterwards.
User avatar
igofast
 
Posts: 340 [View]
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:30 pm
Location: Saint Cloud, MN

Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby andrewP on Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:17 pm

Range pickup brass. 9mm Major bulged out brass would certainly make sense as an explanation, especially given that I shoot USPSA on a regular basis, and there are several guys at OGC USPSA running 9mm Major guns. On some level, though, *they* all reload, and if the brass can stand multiple Major loadings, it would make logical sense that it could handle standard pressure loads again if it would size properly.

I did look up the headstamp, and apparently it's of Chinese manufacture. Not sure if that's any indication of quality or lack thereof, but I suppose it's part of the picture, at least.
andrewP
 
Posts: 608 [View]
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:50 am
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby DanM on Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:45 pm

andrewP wrote:Range pickup brass. 9mm Major bulged out brass would certainly make sense as an explanation, especially given that I shoot USPSA on a regular basis, and there are several guys at OGC USPSA running 9mm Major guns. On some level, though, *they* all reload, and if the brass can stand multiple Major loadings, it would make logical sense that it could handle standard pressure loads again if it would size properly.

I did look up the headstamp, and apparently it's of Chinese manufacture. Not sure if that's any indication of quality or lack thereof, but I suppose it's part of the picture, at least.


*They* may reload, but *they* may not reload their reloads. *They* may just let them lay on the ground because *they* know better than to reuse those over-stressed cases. Maybe. ;)
The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.”
Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
DanM
 
Posts: 670 [View]
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:44 pm
Location: mild mild SW burbs

Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby andrewP on Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:14 pm

DanM wrote:
andrewP wrote:Range pickup brass. 9mm Major bulged out brass would certainly make sense as an explanation, especially given that I shoot USPSA on a regular basis, and there are several guys at OGC USPSA running 9mm Major guns. On some level, though, *they* all reload, and if the brass can stand multiple Major loadings, it would make logical sense that it could handle standard pressure loads again if it would size properly.

I did look up the headstamp, and apparently it's of Chinese manufacture. Not sure if that's any indication of quality or lack thereof, but I suppose it's part of the picture, at least.


*They* may reload, but *they* may not reload their reloads. *They* may just let them lay on the ground because *they* know better than to reuse those over-stressed cases. Maybe. ;)


Well, I'm betting they get back at least some of their own, because I've picked brass right next to one of them. Perhaps they're somehow identifying the cases in question, perhaps not. I'm certainly not claiming to be any kind of expert; I've never loaded 9 major. I'm just reporting what I observe.
andrewP
 
Posts: 608 [View]
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:50 am
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby Seismic Sam on Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:53 am

The colorful Tim Warner shoots 9mm Major, and I believe he uses blue dyechem to mark the base of his cases to warn others that these are his loads, and he chucks those cases in a separate barrel so they don't get used again. Used 9mm brass is cheap and plentiful, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to risk my remaining 7 2/3rds fingers and [sarcasm] my striking George Clooney look-alike face [/sarcasm] by firing a 9mm case that had seen pressures well above 37,500 PSI.
User avatar
Seismic Sam
Gone but not forgotten
 
Posts: 5515 [View]
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:02 pm
Location: Pass By-You, Loosianana

Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby andrewP on Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:04 pm

Seismic Sam wrote:The colorful Tim Warner shoots 9mm Major, and I believe he uses blue dyechem to mark the base of his cases to warn others that these are his loads, and he chucks those cases in a separate barrel so they don't get used again. Used 9mm brass is cheap and plentiful, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to risk my remaining 7 2/3rds fingers and [sarcasm] my striking George Clooney look-alike face [/sarcasm] by firing a 9mm case that had seen pressures well above 37,500 PSI.


IIRC, in USPSA at least, he was running .40 S&W Major out of a Glock 35 with a big-ass magwell on it, but of course my memory may be foggy; it has been over a year since I've seen him shoot, what with how he had to quit running the show for us due to his job. I *do* recall finding quite a few .40 cases with blue bases while picking brass after matches in previous years, and I haven't seen any this year. Perhaps somewhere along the way, he switched from 9 to .40?
andrewP
 
Posts: 608 [View]
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:50 am
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby Seismic Sam on Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:59 am

I wouldn't know if/when he switched, but he was definitely shooting 9mm Major, and I'm not about to discuss the recipe he used and why it worked, but it was a fairly enlightened piece of handloading.
User avatar
Seismic Sam
Gone but not forgotten
 
Posts: 5515 [View]
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:02 pm
Location: Pass By-You, Loosianana

Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby Rodentman on Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:21 pm

Sam, I thought you had 9 2/3 fingers. I have an infinity for folks missing body parts.
User avatar
Rodentman
 
Posts: 2740 [View]
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:22 am

Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby andrewP on Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:38 pm

Seismic Sam wrote:I wouldn't know if/when he switched, but he was definitely shooting 9mm Major, and I'm not about to discuss the recipe he used and why it worked, but it was a fairly enlightened piece of handloading.


I'd only be interested from an academic perspective anyway, as I have no guns capable of handling 9mm Major loads, no powder appropriate for creating them, etc. I've also been reloading long enough to know that the amount of things I *don't* know about it could fill many books, and I'm not about to start experimenting on stuff like that without both guidance *and* a chronograph. Besides, if I wanted 9mm Major load recipes, I'd just head over to the Enos forums; there's plenty of that stuff on there...
andrewP
 
Posts: 608 [View]
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:50 am
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby Seismic Sam on Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:52 am

andrewP wrote:
Seismic Sam wrote:I wouldn't know if/when he switched, but he was definitely shooting 9mm Major, and I'm not about to discuss the recipe he used and why it worked, but it was a fairly enlightened piece of handloading.


I'd only be interested from an academic perspective anyway, as I have no guns capable of handling 9mm Major loads, no powder appropriate for creating them, etc. I've also been reloading long enough to know that the amount of things I *don't* know about it could fill many books, and I'm not about to start experimenting on stuff like that without both guidance *and* a chronograph. Besides, if I wanted 9mm Major load recipes, I'd just head over to the Enos forums; there's plenty of that stuff on there...


My response wasn't specifically worded for you, so don't feel singled out on this. Once you post something like even the slightest clue as to 9mm Major loads some n00b could come along in 6 months and read this post, and decide he's smart enough to take a run at it. The powder Tim used was a powder that's used in 9mm loads, and fairly common, but the way the load works is totally counter-intuitive, and if you used the standard method of working up a load you'd blow yourself to kingdom come before you ever got it to work.
User avatar
Seismic Sam
Gone but not forgotten
 
Posts: 5515 [View]
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:02 pm
Location: Pass By-You, Loosianana

Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby andrewP on Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:07 am

Seismic Sam wrote:My response wasn't specifically worded for you, so don't feel singled out on this. Once you post something like even the slightest clue as to 9mm Major loads some n00b could come along in 6 months and read this post, and decide he's smart enough to take a run at it.


I understood that to be your meaning and intent, especially given that your tone was gentler than some things I've seen you post. I just wanted to reassure you that while I could be argued to be *a* noob by some (only been doing this a few years/only a few thousand rounds under my belt/definitely still learning), I'm at least not *that* noob. :)

The powder Tim used was a powder that's used in 9mm loads, and fairly common, but the way the load works is totally counter-intuitive, and if you used the standard method of working up a load you'd blow yourself to kingdom come before you ever got it to work.


Interesting, and I understand why you're not willing to discuss specifics on a public forum. It'd be hard to find you legally liable for someone else blowing themselves up, but I know I'd sure feel bad if it was a result of something I said.
andrewP
 
Posts: 608 [View]
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:50 am
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby Bessy on Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:45 pm

andrew,

I reload for uspsa. Typically I will load somewhere between 400-500 rounds every week or two. It certainly could be the result of 9mm major.. Your issue here is with the "base" of the case. Depending on what die you are using some size further down the case then others. Dillion's tend to have a wider die mouth, and they don't size quite as far down. I'm not sure about rcbs's dies, as I tend to avoid them. I have used a u-die for years in 45-40-9mm, and like them. They do size a little further down than most others. There is very little flare in the u die's mouth and this also makes them a little more finicky to run in an progressive press. None of the conventional dies will get you a total sizing down the base. For that you would need a push through die. Most of the revo shooters I know either use push through die, or something like a case-master. This ensures total case resizing, which is critical when you want to make sure your moon clips load/eject in a timely fashion.

I hope this helps
In Soviet Russia program executes you!
User avatar
Bessy
 
Posts: 1485 [View]
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Rochester, MN

Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby andrewP on Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:55 pm

Bessy wrote:andrew,

I reload for uspsa. Typically I will load somewhere between 400-500 rounds every week or two. It certainly could be the result of 9mm major.. Your issue here is with the "base" of the case. Depending on what die you are using some size further down the case then others. Dillion's tend to have a wider die mouth, and they don't size quite as far down. I'm not sure about rcbs's dies, as I tend to avoid them. I have used a u-die for years in 45-40-9mm, and like them. They do size a little further down than most others. There is very little flare in the u die's mouth and this also makes them a little more finicky to run in an progressive press. None of the conventional dies will get you a total sizing down the base. For that you would need a push through die. Most of the revo shooters I know either use push through die, or something like a case-master. This ensures total case resizing, which is critical when you want to make sure your moon clips load/eject in a timely fashion.

I hope this helps


It at least confirms my thinking, and most of the conclusions we already came to before Sam and I drifted off into a discussion of another shooter's loads. Like I said above, I'm not going to buy a new die in order to avoid scrapping an occasional case, especially given that 9mm brass is very nearly free. (Plenty of people shoot my USPSA matches with factory ammo and don't reload, so I usually go home with more brass than I shot.)
andrewP
 
Posts: 608 [View]
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:50 am
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Re: Some cases just won't size down far enough?

Postby Seismic Sam on Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:41 pm

andrewP wrote:
Seismic Sam wrote:My response wasn't specifically worded for you, so don't feel singled out on this. Once you post something like even the slightest clue as to 9mm Major loads some n00b could come along in 6 months and read this post, and decide he's smart enough to take a run at it.


I understood that to be your meaning and intent, especially given that your tone was gentler than some things I've seen you post. I just wanted to reassure you that while I could be argued to be *a* noob by some (only been doing this a few years/only a few thousand rounds under my belt/definitely still learning), I'm at least not *that* noob. :)


FYI: You never tripped my n00b radar. For everyone else reading this: It's just that going 9mm Major is such a lethally dangerous proposition that I had to say something. When the base and/or rim deform due to pressure/thrust/premature action opening at high pressures, that case has been stressed beyond the point of trying to resize it. The street price of 9mm pickup brass is about $.04 a round. Do you REALLY want to go to the ER and spend 4 figures for four cents?? This isn't anything like going 1 grain over the max with a 44 mag load in a Ruger Super Blackhawk/Redhawk. This is totally unknown territory, and no reputable company with the pressure barrels to test it would even consider doing it, much less publishing the data.
User avatar
Seismic Sam
Gone but not forgotten
 
Posts: 5515 [View]
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:02 pm
Location: Pass By-You, Loosianana

Next

Return to Ammunition & Reloading

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

cron