Lead Free

[homestead]

OK guys,

I'm hoping not to start a debate of any kind; political, environmental, or otherwise. I believe in liberty, but I also believe we need to be good stewards of the nature that surrounds us. So please consider my question in that spirit. I am betting this is a touchy subject for some.

Because we shoot on our own property, but also just have a basic desire to have the smallest possible environmental impact, I am concerned with lead in ammunition. We have a working homestead with wetland, maple trees to tap, fruits and vegetables growing, and many animals. We all know lead exposure leads to a whole host of problems so I'd like to be proactive and use completely lead-free ammunition if possible.

There are two problems I am having in looking for 5.56 and 9mm ammunition:
1. I am having a hard time finding ammunition that is COMPLETELY lead free: both the primer and the projectile itself. There are rounds like Liberty which use a lead-free bullet but conventional primers. Others like Winchester Super Clean, I can't find exactly what I'm looking for (like 62 grain 5.56, although there is 55). Is there a resource somewhere that lists rounds that are 100% lead free from the projectile, to the primer, and any other source of toxic metals?

2. I don't understand ballistics well enough yet to determine if a given round, lead-free or otherwise, is intended only for target practice or could be used in a real application: survival, hunting, defense, etc. If there is a list of 100% lead free rounds, is there a rule of thumb I can use to find the ones that would be useful all-around?

I realize the cost of these is currently 2x or more conventional, but it's worth it to me. If I can maybe find a practice round and a (perhaps more expensive) defensive/hunting round and get a modest stock of that in 5.56/223 and 9mm, I'd be set.

Just to make it clear: I have an emergency stash of Federal XM855 5.56 and AE 124gr 9mm which are obviously totally conventional rounds. In a crisis situation we may not have the luxury of choice, and with current prices it would be prohibitive to have as many lead-free rounds on hand.

Thanks all!
Patrick

[homestead]

I also want to add I am happy to be schooled on this if I am somehow off-base. My concerns are: the particulate fumes immediately following firing, which I or my kids could inhale, the rest of which stays on our clothing or soaks into the ground, then the bullet itself which we know will eventually leach into the surface ground at the very least, so although it may never affect ground water it will absolutely affect plants and trees drawing nutrients from the soil.

[Erud]

If you are seriously that concerned with the environment, why are you shooting guns at all? it could be argued pretty effectively that every single step of the process is harmful in some way, from the manufacturing of the firearm itself, all the way down to the burning of the powder that moves the bullet. Heavy metals of one type of another are left in the ground in areas they don't naturally occur to decompose(or not) or be ingested by animals.

Make a bow and a few arrows out of already fallen trees and shoot those instead. The native Americans sustained themselves for many generations this way while remaining sensitive to Mother Earth's needs.

[Ghost]

I don't know much about this but Barnes has some good hunting bullets that are lead free. I'm unaware of any primers that are lead free but you can pick them up anyway and dispose properly of them.

In my opinion the only way the lead bullets would hurt your kids would be if they chew on them, eat them or you shoot them with them.

[MJY65]

I can't find exactly what I'm looking for (like 62 grain 5.56, although there is 55).

I've used lead free indoors, but have never seen anything heavier than 55. Those compressed copper bullets are long for weight already, and would probably be very tough to stabilize in the 60+ range.

[ex-LT]

... Barnes has some good hunting bullets that are lead free. I'm unaware of any primers that are lead free ...

^^^^This.

Hornady and Nosler make lead-free bullets as well. I've had good luck with the Hornady 139gr 7mm bullet. Haven't used the Nosler e-tip.
I know someone makes ammunition with lead-free primers (Winchester was cited by the OP, and I think Remington does as well), but as far as I know, neither company sells them as a reloading component.

[Ghost]

I can't find exactly what I'm looking for (like 62 grain 5.56, although there is 55).

I've used lead free indoors, but have never seen anything heavier than 55. Those compressed copper bullets are long for weight already, and would probably be very tough to stabilize in the 60+ range.

I've used these with no issue.
http://www.brownells.com/reloading/bullets/rifle-bullets/barnes-22-cal-62-gr-triple-shock-x-bullets-50-sku749009039-39588-71976.aspx

Was banging a 6" steel gong at 200 yards no problem. Used them about 3 or 4 years ago for deer season but didn't get to shoot anything. I was also using a 24" barrel AR.

EDIT: here's what I was using

[hammAR]

Lead free - really..........

Copper toxicity, also called copperiedus, refers to the consequences of an excess of copper in the body. Copperiedus can occur from from exposure to excess copper in drinking water, breathing copper fumes or particles in the air or other environmental sources. Inorganic metallic copper is a neurotoxic heavy metal linked to physical and psychiatric symptoms on par with mercury and lead.

ICD-9-CM code 985.8 Toxic effect of other specified metals includes acute & chronic copper poisoning (or other toxic effect) whether intentional, accidental, industrial etc.

In addition, it includes poisoning and toxic effects of other metals including tin, selenium nickel, iron, heavy metals, thallium, silver, lithium, cobalt, aluminum and bismuth. Some poisonings, e.g. zinc phosphide, would/could also be included as well as under 989.4 Poisoning due to other pesticides, etc.

Excluded are toxic effects of mercury, arsenic, manganese, beryllium, antimony, cadmium, and chromium.

[photogpat]

Barnes bullets. As far as I know, there are no commercially available lead-free primers.

Knock yourself out - you're free to make whatever choices you want....but just ask yourself....are you planning to subsistence hunt solely on your property? Are you planning to grow your veggie garden directly on your shooting range (after firing hundreds of thousands of rounds)?

If the answer is "no" to either of those...then you're needlessly spending money in advance of a Quixotic quest. Your comment about being a "good steward" creates a false dichotomy.

[homestead]

alright - pretty much the mix of responses I expected bow and arrow indeed

Thanks to all who provided constructively to the conversation!

Winchester Super Clean NT in Handgun and Rifle is the round I was referring to. I am betting there will be more entirely lead free (including primer) rounds as the CA lead ban comes into full effect in 2019.

Again, I'm well aware this is a contentious subject and expected to provoke ire. My concern is leachate due to corrosion in the ground, but most importantly the lead vapors which are released upon ignition. But I attempted to make it clear I'm happy to be schooled here as well; I'm an engineer, neither a medical doctor nor a chemist. Thanks to those who offered that as well.

I choose to own firearms as well as electronic devices (due to the nature of my business), machines, batteries, and other things that have certain exposure 'risks' (although I solder lead free). We all make our own choices and tradeoffs, so it is not for me to say what someone else ought to do. I hope that is explicitly clear.

[photogpat]

Isn't choice a grand thing? I'm not being deliberately contrarian - but you're presenting a false dichotomy under the guise of science and authority - and you're incorrect in some of your assumptions.

Again, are you planning on firing hundreds of thousands of non-jacketed bullets or running a trap range (with the hundreds of thousands of rounds) on your range? Leachate will not be a concern of yours then - even then it may not be depending on your soil chemistry....research soil types and lead leaching, lots of information to be had concerning the weathering of lead on gun ranges.

You said you're an engineer and you're correct - it's mainly the firing of the primers (and open based bullets) that contributes to airborne lead...which is only an issue with people firing large amounts in poorly ventilated indoor ranges - outdoor shooting is non-measurable in most cases.

You're incorrect on the California lead ban as it only affects the projectile. Lead priming will likely be the industry standard for at least the next decade if not longer.

Make your own choices of course - but don't attempt to pass them off as scientifically based.

[homestead]

Isn't choice a grand thing? I'm not being deliberately contrarian - but you're presenting a false dichotomy under the guise of science and authority - and you're incorrect in some of your assumptions.

I'm really not making any assumptions. I guess it's a thought experiment based on some research I did after shooting awhile and thinking "let's just make sure this is an OK thing to do on the same property that is feeding us"... That's pretty much it. I may be an idealist but I'm also a pragmatist, which is part of the reason we own firearms.

Again, are you planning on firing hundreds of thousands of non-jacketed bullets or running a trap range (with the hundreds of thousands of rounds) on your range? Leachate will not be a concern of yours then - even then it may not be depending on your soil chemistry....research soil types and lead leaching, lots of information to be had concerning the weathering of lead on gun ranges.

Yeah, I have read wet soil can prevent leaching, so we may be OK there. But if there is an alternative, I figure I might as well explore it.

We have only ever used FMJ rounds. But I do not have a trap yet unfortunately.

You said you're an engineer and you're correct - it's mainly the firing of the primers (and open based bullets) that contributes to airborne lead...which is only an issue with people firing large amounts in poorly ventilated indoor ranges - outdoor shooting is non-measurable in most cases.

My understanding is even FMJ has the lead core exposed at the back so you have vapor from the primer as well as the rear of the bullet (vs. TMJ which supposedly has no exposed lead core, but you'd still have lead-based primer in the TMJ rounds I've seen).

You're incorrect on the California lead ban as it only affects the projectile. Lead priming will likely be the industry standard for at least the next decade if not longer.

Got it. IMO that is just insane, but classic politics. If they decided lead is a problem for condors, why isn't it also a problem for particles folks breath or that eventually fall on the ground?

Make your own choices of course - but don't attempt to pass them off as scientifically based.

Well, they are scientifically based in that I made an educated guess lead would be an issue, and did some research, and it turns out that there are studies that say it is. But based on what my understanding, primarily the issue is indoor ranges, particularly those with poor ventilation.

Not to say there might not be other studies that disprove it, especially for a recreational shooter primarily interested in occasional training for defense and the possibility of having to hunt for subsistence in an emergency situation. Hence the cache of XM855 and FMJ 9mm...

I am probably more open minded than the impression you got. Just like any guy, I love my wife and kids and love the land and want to do the best I can. Not much more to say beyond that.

[Erud]

I feel compelled to add that after you have finished weeping for the fallen tree and have fashioned your bow and arrows from his once-mighty limbs, under no circumstances should these tools ever he used to injure or frighten any of Mother's gentle forest creatures. They should only be used against humans found firing real guns, riding snowmobiles, or committing other reprehensible, environmentally-insensitive hate crimes.

[homestead]

I feel compelled to add that after you have finished weeping for he fallen tree and have fashioned your bow and arrows from his once-mighty limbs, under no circumstances should these tools ever he used to injure or frighten any of Mother's gentle forest creatures. They should only be used against humans found firing real guns, riding snowmobiles, or committing other reprehensible, environmentally-insensitive hate crimes.

Very well, thanks for the contribution.

[Erud]

It's the least I can do.