Anyone reloading 338 LM?

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Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby Bearcatrp on Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:18 am

My 338LM is on its way. Researching powders, primers and bullets. Will spend the bucks on Lapua brass. Seems H1000 and retumbo is the preferred powder. If you reload for this, what is your pet load for long distance shooting.
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Re: Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby Seismic Sam on Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:54 pm

No, but I have reloaded 338 Remington Ultramag quite a bit. While a lot of people will quickly point out that the .338 LM is a bigger case and takes more powder, for the Sierra 300 Matchking bullet, which is THE bullet for long range shooting and accuracy, the max load for the 338 RUM gets the 300 SMK going 2750 FPS, and the max load for the 338 LM get the same bullet going 2750 FPS. I think you are right on those two powders. Retumbo is THE powder for both calibers. Stay away from the Berger .338 300 grain hybrid design like the plague. I tried it when it first came out, and had all sorts of problems, and they then came out with sort of an apology that while the ballistic coefficient was supposed to be .843 or some very high number, THEY COULD NOT REPRODUCE THE INITIAL TEST DATA AND WERE RETRACTING ALL CLAIMS ABOUT ITS BC!!! They mentioned that the problem might be "bullet slump", which meant that the bullet nose slumped back in the barrel :( :o :shock: :? , created extra friction, and killed off the velocity. This drop in velocity translated into increased recoil, and for a 338 round that is NOT good. Bottom line, the newest Berger handloading manual has NO data in it for any caliber over .300"!!! Dunno if they still make that bullet or not, but DON'T BUY ANY!!

As far as reloading get the Forster benchrest size die with the expander ball just below the neck sizing part of the die, and the Coax seating die with the floating sleeve in it. Use Federal 215M primers ONLY. If you want as much accuracy as you can get, you are going to have to weigh the powder for EVERY load. If this is for hunting, you are going to have to load the bullets quite a few mils off the lands to get them to fit in the magazine, and that may cost you in accuracy. My .338 RUM is a single shot gun, and I keep the bullet about 20 mils off the lands.

If that rifle doesn't have a muzzle brake, you MUST put one on to begin with. I have a JP kinda ugly but incredibly effective A1 Abrams type brake put on mine, and I can shoot 50 rounds in a T-shirt. Meanwhile, young guys as big as me and 25 years younger would come in to Oakdale with .338 RUMs, and be TOAST after 9 shots. To figure out where the accuracy nodes are, you WILL need a chrono, and the Millenium 2 is the one everybody WINDS UP owning. You can almost figure out where the nodes are just by plotting the SD of the velocity for 5 shots at one powder weight. At some point that value will drop significantly and then go back up.

Good luck, and hang on tight!! BTW - What gun did you buy?? We want gun porn!!! :angryvillagers:
Last edited by Seismic Sam on Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby Bearcatrp on Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:00 pm

Picked up a used Savage 110 FCP. Shot 50 times according to the owner. Rifle, RCBS dies and 50 pieced of brass (half loaded) for $1175.00. He just dropped it off at his FFL yesterday. The rest by usps. Was considering the stealth but after asking folks about barrel length for 338LM, everyone said get the FCP due to the 26 inch barrel. Stealth has a 24 inch barrel. Will post pics when it comes in. Reloaded for 50BMG in the past so won't be an issue for this. Still researching powder, bullets and primers. Will be ordering Lapua brass after the rifle arrives. Thanks for your insight. Will help with my decisions.
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/10FCPHS
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Re: Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby Seismic Sam on Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:50 pm

Yes, you got yourself a bargain with the Savage, and from what I hear they build those rifles RIGHT. I'll just assume you can measure powder to at least .05 grain accuracy, and leave it at that. After all, with the 50 BMG your accuracy only has to be +/- 1/2 scoop!!! :roll:

This is the drivel Berger originally released on their bullet in 2010. I was "just" shooting the relatively puny .338 RUM, but had the reported problems and let them know about it. Of course I never heard back from them.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/update-regarding-the-338-hybrids/

Another honked off customers BESIDES me....
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/i-am-very-dissapointed-berger-bullets-regarding-338-hybrid-bullet-57561/

This is the Berger manual that came out in 2012, TWO YEARS after the .338 Hybrid SNAFU, and look at the index of calibers: Hmmmm - Nothing above .300"....
http://www.bergerbullets.com/reloading-manual-cartridge-list/

http://www.bergerbullets.com/reloading-data
However, note in the ad above .338 cartridges have been included. If you click on the links and go to the PDF format data on your computer, please check out the 338 RUM data. With the Berger hybrid bullet, the max load of Retumbo is 87.3 grains, and the velocity is 2611 FPS. Unfortunately, this data does NOT line up with the Sierra manual, where the max 338 RUM load with the 300 grain SMK is listed as 93.6 grains and 2750 FPS!! As such, the Berger MAX 338 RUM load data is 140 fps SLOWER and 6.3 grains LIGHTER than the Sierra data. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot :?: :?: :?:

Okay, please sit at your computers, strap yourself in, and put on your oxygen mask for this revelation. I just figured out this next part 30 minutes ago, and I am in shock. I did a Google search for "problems with Berger 300 grain hybrid bullet", and got a list of hits, and I have already shown you one of those above. This one has a rather familiar ring to it:

http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=15140 (Don't bother to read it now, or later for that matter, I'm still the same Curmudegon that you love to hate.)


Now I DO remember that this post was back there somewhere, but I didn't realize that nearly 7 years have since passed since I wrote it.
The real shock here is the following graph from 7 years ago, COUPLED with the Berger loading data from years later for the 338 Ultramag:

http://www.mnguntalk.com/download/file.php?id=5167&mode=view

This is the graph of my chrono testing of the Sierra and Berger 300 grain bullets. The RED squares were the 1st Berger loads I shot, and they kicked like a mule, and the velocity was dead flat. I knew something was very wrong, stopped, and disassembled all the remaining loads. I then made up another string of Berger loads starting at 89.0 grains, and worked up in 1/2 grain increments as before. The first loads seemed normal, but then the hard recoil started coming back, and I called it a day.

The following is from my initial post in 2010: I went back and loaded up 5 shot strings starting at 89.0 grains of Retumbo, with the powder weight increasing in half grain increments up to 91.5 grains. Back to the range I went with a chrono with a new battery, and the results are shown as the dark blue data on the first graph. When I first looked at the velocity averages I thought I had a nice linear trend going, but my trendline said otherwise, and I had an INCREASING rate of velocity change. This is NOT good, as when the data curve is starting to accelerate that can mean your pressures are also starting to jump faster and faster, and that can lead to very bad things. Just for the sake of doing it, I projected this trend up to 92.5 grains, which was the starting point for my first string where the velocity was oddly constant and the gun was beating me up. Gee, would you believe they match up perfectly?? So, I have data that shows an ACCELERATING velocity trend, which normally indicates that your velocity may REALLY spike along with the pressure and blow the case and/or the gun if you continue, but I ALSO have data at a HIGHER loading that shows a CONSTANT velocity with increasing pressure in the first string. Normally, these two trends are mutually exclusive. Unless, of course, the bullet is deforming and creating so much additional friction that no amount of increased pressure can blow it out of the barrel any faster. :shock:


To sum this all up, I discovered TONIGHT that it looks like Berger may have taken my data (and or replicated it on their own) and then simply cut off the data above where the bullet slump started, and called THAT the max load!!! The velocities don't line up, but my data is for bullets bore seated 20 mils back, while the Berger data would have to be shorter to fit the magazine of the test rifle, so their velocities would have been higher and the slump would have started at lower charge weights.

In conclusion, O M G.....

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Re: Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby Bearcatrp on Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:51 pm

I trickle every load I do, regardless if it's rifle or pistol on a gem pro 250. Slow but always accurate. Sounds like they copied you. You should call them on it. Still looking but am a Hornady fan so may start with the 285 ELD-M. Thanks for the links. Will check them out. From what I have read, most gun manufacturers adjusted there rifles for the 338, whereas Savage built there's from the ground up. Like my 50BMG, will be taking my time loading. Thanks again.
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Re: Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby Erud on Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:21 am

Seismic,
Every cartridge in the Berger manual is seriously under-powered with their published data. I don't know if their legal department just got a little too excited or what, but I've found their data to be mostly useless. Heck, their max Varget charge for a .308 with 155's is a full 3 grains below what I've used in my last 4 Palma barrels. At any rate, the bad juju with their 300gr .338 offering was back in 2010. Are you suggesting that they have done nothing to correct the design flaw in the past 6+ years, and instead stole your load data and just capped the top end to keep their customers from ever uncovering the conspiracy? As Berger does more bullet testing and development than any company in the industry, that seems a little hard for me to believe. Have you tried calling them to ask them? I'd be pretty darned surprised if they haven't addressed an acknowledged flaw in that amount of time. They didn't get to the top of the bullet mountain by fleecing their customers, and they have a reputation to protect. The hybrid design in general is arguably one of the biggest advancements in bullet design in the last 50 years.
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Re: Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby Bearcatrp on Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:47 am

Here is what's on the way. I think I did ok for what I paid.
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Re: Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby Ghost on Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:57 am

Bearcatrp wrote:Here is what's on the way. I think I did ok for what I paid.
Image

Better put good glass on it. I'm jealous.
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Re: Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby crbutler on Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:03 am

Erud,

While Berger has a great benchrest accuracy reputation, they have also been trying to convince folks that their bullets are good hunting bullets.

Frankly, their hunting offerings look and perform like any other match bullet. Work OK if you hit the animal in the right spot and you are hunting animals in the right size category, but not IMO really a hunting bullet.

If they are passing that around and selling basically OTM bullets as fully hunting bullets to get in to the hunting market, what does that say about the company? Yes, some writers like Barnsness have drank the koolaid on them and again, in some situations it works just fine (so will a seirra matchking) but a bullet with no controlled expansion is not a hunting bullet. They are also pushing a lot of this long range hunting stuff (800+ yards) which I feel is not really ethical.

I agree that their manual has seemingly low powder charge loads with relatively high velocities for most cartridges as you state. If you know what you are doing, it's safe and you can get where you need to be by using a chronograph and watching the cases, but are they using tight chambered guns for load development? Who knows.

I just don't trust Berger much, even if I have had really fine results punching paper with their products. The bullet they make is very consistent and accurate, but other than that, they are stating a bunch of hogwash.
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Re: Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby Erud on Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:02 am

crbutler wrote:Erud,

While Berger has a great benchrest accuracy reputation, they have also been trying to convince folks that their bullets are good hunting bullets.

Frankly, their hunting offerings look and perform like any other match bullet. Work OK if you hit the animal in the right spot and you are hunting animals in the right size category, but not IMO really a hunting bullet.

If they are passing that around and selling basically OTM bullets as fully hunting bullets to get in to the hunting market, what does that say about the company? Yes, some writers like Barnsness have drank the koolaid on them and again, in some situations it works just fine (so will a seirra matchking) but a bullet with no controlled expansion is not a hunting bullet. They are also pushing a lot of this long range hunting stuff (800+ yards) which I feel is not really ethical.

I agree that their manual has seemingly low powder charge loads with relatively high velocities for most cartridges as you state. If you know what you are doing, it's safe and you can get where you need to be by using a chronograph and watching the cases, but are they using tight chambered guns for load development? Who knows.

I just don't trust Berger much, even if I have had really fine results punching paper with their products. The bullet they make is very consistent and accurate, but other than that, they are stating a bunch of hogwash.


I didn't see anything about hunting in the thread until now. My comments were to Seismic Sam regarding his particular issue with the 300 gr Hybrid back in 2010. I am a target shooter, and don't know anything about hunting, or Berger's hunting line of bullets. I have shot many thousands of Berger Hybrids (6mm 105's & .30 cal 155's) in competition and have found them to be the best available offerings for my use. We get ridiculously low pricing on the Sierra 2156 Palma bullet through the US national team, but I still pay full price for the Berger 155 Hybrid for any match beyond 600 yards, and I'm not alone. It's just a better bullet. The same goes for the 105 Hybrid vs anything else in it's class. This is why I'd be surprised if Berger has not fixed the issue with the 300 after knowing about it for 6+ years. I am looking forward to testing the new Sierra 110 gr 6mm though. If it's better, I will buy and shoot a crap-ton of them.

Also, I didn't state that their manual shows high velocities for low charge weights, just that their listed loads are very conservative, even at their "max" loadings.
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Re: Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby crbutler on Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:57 am

My point is that while their bullets are good, and may even be great target bullets, the company tends to say things that are a bit suspect. They claim their hunting bullets are great, but in the couple I sectioned, I could see no difference between the match and the hunting ones. On paper, I had identical results with the match VLD and the hunting VLD.

In loads I worked up with their VLD bullets I was very impressed with their paper accuracy... but to get the velocity claimed in the manual I had to go 4 grains of powder over max with their manual in a 30-06. The rifle shoots other loads to pretty much book velocities, and no pressure signs were noted, so I just thought their loads were either pretty mild or loaded in a tight chambered match rifle.

I remember the hoopla about issues with the .338 300 grain hybrids when they came out. The fact is that they have dramatically reduced the load that they had and haven't redone the data to me states that it probably has not been redesigned. I don't shoot a .338 ultra or Lapua, just a .338 win mag and a .330 Dakota hunting rifles in that caliber, so cannot comment on it directly to that bullet. The recoil from them is more unpleasant than from my bigger African guns.

Like you, I doubt that they just took Sam's data and lawyerized it, but but the fact that it was that dramatically different and that they have not changed much is not very comforting regarding the company.

I will continue to use Bergers in my steel shooting rifles, and if I ever decide to try your game, will probably load some up for that, but will have to verify to myself anything that that company claims.
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Re: Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby goosed on Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:11 pm

Measured way back in 2012 at XLR gunsite by KnS, but still a decent starting point with real world results rather than theoretical numbers.

Bullet 1: 300gr Sierra MatchKing – Manufacturer reported BC – 0.759 averaged G1 Acoustically determined BC – 0.747 G1 and 0.380 G7
Bullet 2: 285 gr Hornady BTHP Match – Manufacturer reported BC – 0.720 averaged G1 Acoustically determined BC – 0.685 G1 and 0.348 G7
Bullet 3: 245 gr Lehigh turned solid - Manufacturer reported BC N/A Acoustically determined BC – 0.651 G1 and 0.333 G7
Bullet 4 – 232 gr GS Customs SP turned solid – Manufacturer reported BC – 0.686 averaged G1 Acoustically determined BC – 0.578 G1 and 0.298 G7
Bullet 5 – 235 gr Predator turned solid - Manufacturer reported BC - N/A Acoustically determined BC – 0.556 G1 and 0.282 G7
Bullet 6 – 300 gr Berger Hybrid (Gen II) – Manufacturer reported BC – 0.816 G1 / 0.418 G7 Acoustically determined BC – 0.766 G1 and 0.389 G7
Bullet 7 – 276 gr ZA turned solid – Manufacturer reported BC - High Acoustically determined BC – 0.719 G1 and 0.362 G7

Of interesting note all acoustic values follow Litz's testing in his books within 4%... except the Berger which falls well short of his published numbers.
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Re: Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby Bearcatrp on Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:22 pm

Ghost wrote:
Bearcatrp wrote:Here is what's on the way. I think I did ok for what I paid.
Image

Better put good glass on it. I'm jealous.

Will be putting a Burris XTR II 4-20x50 that was on my 6.5 creedmoor I decide to sell and go 338. It's an awesome scope.
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Re: Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby Seismic Sam on Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:14 pm

Erud wrote:Seismic,
Every cartridge in the Berger manual is seriously under-powered with their published data. I don't know if their legal department just got a little too excited or what, but I've found their data to be mostly useless. Heck, their max Varget charge for a .308 with 155's is a full 3 grains below what I've used in my last 4 Palma barrels. At any rate, the bad juju with their 300gr .338 offering was back in 2010. Are you suggesting that they have done nothing to correct the design flaw in the past 6+ years, and instead stole your load data and just capped the top end to keep their customers from ever uncovering the conspiracy? As Berger does more bullet testing and development than any company in the industry, that seems a little hard for me to believe. Have you tried calling them to ask them? I'd be pretty darned surprised if they haven't addressed an acknowledged flaw in that amount of time. They didn't get to the top of the bullet mountain by fleecing their customers, and they have a reputation to protect. The hybrid design in general is arguably one of the biggest advancements in bullet design in the last 50 years.


Are you suggesting that they have done nothing to correct the design flaw in the past 6+ years ABSOLUTELY
and instead stole your load data WHICH WAS LYING ON THE GRASSY KNOLL IN DALLAS...
And just capped the top end to keep their customers MONEY COMING IN
From ever uncovering the conspiracy? I SMELL BLACK HELICOPTERS AND BURNING RETUMBO!!! YOW!!!
As Berger does more bullet testing and development than any company in the industry, that seems a little hard for me to believe. THEY TESTED THE BC ONCE, WENT PUBLIC WITH THE DATA AND ADVERTISED THAT BC TO GET QUICK SALES, AND THEN HAD TO RETRACT IT ALL. IN ADDITION, THEY DIDN'T SAY THEIR INITIAL TESTING WAS SCREWED UP,BUT THAT THEY COULDN'T REPRODUCE THE TESTING, WHICH SOMEHOW IMPLIES THAT THE FIRST TEST WAS STILL REAL AND/OR EVER EXISTED. NONE OF THIS IS CONSISTENT WITH A LEADER IN INNOVATION AND PRODUCT TESTING IN THE INDUSTRY.

Here's the original advertised performance of the Berger 338 Hybrrid:
Image
I remember seeing this data and looking at the .933 BC for 2500 - 3000 FPS, and thought this must be the breakthrough of the century to get a BC this high. Back then I think everyone used the G1 numbers, and the nearest competitor was Sierra with their 300 SMK having a BC of .768. .933/.768 = 21% improvement with the Berger bullet That seemed like it was too good to be true...... :roll: :roll: :roll:
In addition, I sent at least two letters in to them with my chrono data, and talked to Bryan Litz TWICE on the phone. Never heard a peep back.
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Re: Anyone reloading 338 LM?

Postby Bearcatrp on Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:48 am

Brought it home yesterday. Pure awesome! Waiting on delivery of reloading gear to begin. Primers seem to be a pain in the ass to find. May have to drive down to gunstop.
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