10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

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10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby mmcnx2 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:46 am

So the wife takes her renewal class this weekend and she packs up her EMP and a box of factory fresh 9mm federal ammo and off she goes.

She gets to the class and they instead say they provide the ammo to insure no one is sneaking in relaods(I guess that is a concern).

3 rounds into the range fire the EMP jams. Unfired round is stuck about 7/8's of the way in. I get the call from her and the range in full panic, the EMP has run 100% since she bought new back in 2006. I calm her and tell her it must be the ammo, I'll be right there, don't have anyone touch it.

I get there and the range klutz has the round out, he used a rubber mallet to bump the slide back and then a wood dowel to knock the round out, much to my wife's protest that they should leave it.

I get the round in my hands and clearly can see a bulge on the round near the base. I ask what the heck ammo is this and they show me a plain white box with a cheezy 10x sticker on it and right on it it says re-manufactured. I chewed them out a bit for providing the crap and also for messing with her gun.

I did a quick disassembly of the EMP, checked the barrel and slide and frame, everything is fine. Loaded 5 rounds of federal new ammo and it runs 100%. Got home with the round in question it did not fit in my Dillion case gage so I tried in the Glock 34 chamber, S&W 929 cylinders,and CZ75 chamber, no go on all of them.

Steer clear of this crap ammo.

As a group we can be pretty harsh on reloader that are making ammo for themselves, but for a company to turn out crap like this is totally unacceptable and for this to be used in a carry class is really disappointing. On the plus side the wife said the instructor that did the class portion was excellent, very informative, up to date and engaging.
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Re: 10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby BigDog58 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:58 am

Is it possible that the range received some sort of kick-back from the "ammo re-manufacturer"? There is no excuse for them preventing others from providing their own reloaded ammo, if they are providing reloads.
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Re: 10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby grimbeaver on Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:49 am

Sounds like they are loaded with Berry's. Description says "Mixed headstamp in both brass and nickel cases". Mixing brass and nickel? So obviously no sorting going on. Makes me worried you might get some of those reduced capacity cases mixed in and your gun will go boom.
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Re: 10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby westhope on Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:40 am

Early 3 inch barrel EMP's had very tight chambers. Mine did. They are very close to the minimum tolerance for chambers. (If you send the barrel in to Springfield they will enlarge the chamber slightly.) Mine worked fine with new factory ammo. They would occasionally not chamber my early reloads. I went to adding a "Lee Factory Crimp die" at the final station of my press. That fixed the problem with my reloads. I have not had any problems with new factory ammo in my EMP. I will not shoot re-manufactured or someone else's reloads in my EMP. Yes, other's 9 mm reloads have jammed as you stated in my EMP.

Standard sizing dies DO NOT fully resize the 9 mm case all the way to the base. If the case was fired from a barrel that did not have a fully supported chamber (think Glock) there will be a slight bulge at the base of the case that does not get fully resized near the base with a standard resizing die. The Lee Factory Crimp die not only puts a crimp on the round but it resizes closer to the base of the case at the final stage of a progressive press. These have worked fine in my 3 inch EMP 9 mm. (I have not had the chamber enlarged on my EMP.) I use a case gage on all my rounds as I put them in a cartridge box before loading them in the gun. (I do not remember if my reloads, before I used the Lee Factory Crimp die, would fit in a case gage but still jam in my EMP.)

To FULLY resize a 9 mm case, either a push through or roller-plate style of resizing operation must be done. Either of these will fully remove the bulge from an un-supported chamber. Any reputable re-manufacturer will know of the bulge on some of the 9 mm cases and should use either of the above methods of resizing the case.

I will no longer reload 9 mm cases unless I know their origin. USPSA / IPSC shooters are now reloading 9 mm to make "Major" power factor. The cases are being over-pressurized and are not safe to be reloaded. I do not know how to sort out 9 mm cases that have been loaded to "Major", so I will not use any "range pick-up" 9 mm brass. I very much doubt that the re-manufacturer knew the origin of all the brass they used. (Even if they get it from police departments only.)
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Re: 10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby mmcnx2 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:17 pm

Guys, I'm aware the EMP had tight chambers. I too have elected not to have it reamed by Springfield. I also don't reload any 9mm brass that I did not fire as new originally, especially with the Major 9 guys out there. I've been voicing concern over what folks call once fired range brass for years. If it is laying on a range you have no idea what previous life it had. I also get the non supported chamber discussion, I've encountered the 'Glock Bulge' which actually is made by a number of striker fire guns. Roll sizing is great but not real practical for the home reloader; so push through is about all you can do. Honestly because of all that I reload 9 very infrequently, I just buy new, I do keep my brass and if I ever find a chance to use someones roll sizer I'll have brass for the next decade.

As far as the instructor requiring them to use their ammo, I kind of understand, especially after seeing some of the questions from guys on this board. But then to turn around and provide re-manufactured seems a little off.

My wife loves her EMP, it shoots great(tight chamber and all, my wife has a joke about that but it is better left unsaid), she can shoot it very accurately and she can operate it under 99% of the conditions(in fairness I know many people that would not have been able to get that round out the chamber given the slide was stuck very very tight.)

She learned her lesson(beyond the class material) shoot the ammo you know works, never shoot ammo you don't know the source of. Inconvenient for us but she now knows why I've told her, don't take them for a spin unless you know where they have been(again there is a joke there but I'm sure you guys get it).
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10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby Ron Burgundy on Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:22 pm

What was the name of the training group? What was the name of the range klutz and/or range ?
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Re: 10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby Spike on Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:41 pm

Ron Burgundy wrote:What was the name of the training group? What was the name of the range klutz and/or range ?


This! If they want to look for reloads, that's fine (but dumb). They shouldn't be preventing you from bringing factory ammo. They certainly shouldn't have messed with her gun over her objections.

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Re: 10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby mmcnx2 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:17 pm

I'll let the trainer and range officer off n being publicly outed on this one. The issue was the ammo and I did name them.

The trainer, I understand his position(don't agree but understand), but I think his preventive action was flawed and based on our post incident discussion I think he gets it now and will either spend the extra dollar for new ammo or better yet let people use factory ammo they supply.

The range officer has been banished from amateur gunsmithing, I don't think he will ever handle another persons firearm when told not to, I know he won't touch one of my guns again.

Both issues have been solved directly, nothing to gain by spanking them again.

I did reach out the ammo folks and they were very nice but blamed it on a past employee that mixed some unprocessed brass in accidentally. They seemed aware of the issue and even offered some ammo as consideration, but call me funny, I'm not gutsy enough to try more of the same stuff that caused the issue in the first place and I'm not a fan of re-manufactured ammo given the brass source is unknown.

I named them only because I'm not sure I buy the ex-employee story, as a reloader it sounds more like he is using basic 9mm dies and they just don't do the job(as we have all pointed out) of taking out the bulge.
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Re: 10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby andrewP on Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:54 am

mmcnx2 wrote:I named them only because I'm not sure I buy the ex-employee story, as a reloader it sounds more like he is using basic 9mm dies and they just don't do the job(as we have all pointed out) of taking out the bulge.


Even if that's not the case, it sounds like their QC process could use some improvement. If the round in question wouldn't drop into *any* of your guns, one wonders what the people who reloaded that ammo do for QC that didn't catch it. Are they only case gauging a certain percentage of rounds and just hoping they catch the few bad ones?
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Re: 10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby Seismic Sam on Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:00 am

I still think you should name the company doing the training, as this is a pretty serious safety and MANAGEMENT infraction that could have gotten somebody hurt. They buy crappy re-manufactured ammo from God only knows where, and perhaps the half sober uncle of one of the owners/trainers, and then essentially FORCE unsuspecting new shooters to use this stuff?? That's demonstrable proof they don't know Jack shyte about telling good ammo from bad, and also that they are trying to get by a cheap as possible while they are making a buck off this crap. It's ESPECIALLY hypocritical to say you don't want students to bring handloaded ammo to class, and then it turns out that this cheap crap WAS handloaded by somebody who didn't know enough to use a minimum tolerance die. If this had happened to me, I would make sure that I named this "training" company, because I'd rather burn in hell than take responsibility for someone getting hurt with this crap down the line....
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Re: 10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby linksep on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:38 pm

How do you push-through resize a tapered case without getting something stuck?
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Re: 10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby crbutler on Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:56 am

Linksep the die is bringing the base of the case down to the required diameter, not resizing the case for reloading. You run it through the push through to iron out the base and then you do the normal case resize. Roll sizing technically you can fully resize in one pass, but I've always run it through the full length sizer as well.
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Re: 10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby OldmanFCSA on Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:14 am

When my wife and I renewed our permits, the instructor let us use my reloads (38 Special for wife, 9mm for me) and even let others know that practice with reloads was acceptable.

I use factory for carry although its difficult to know which sometimes = I should buy a different ammo for carry that is obvious "factory" in 9mm. 38Spcl is no problem.

Over the years, I've seen some really bad reloads from companies that "remanufactured" ammo. I've always made sure my "reloaded and/or remanufactured" ammo was Quality Ammo as it only takes one or two bad circumstances to destroy a reputation and a company. I've had primer fail to fire issues in past, but when broken down, all other components were of proper manufacture. Using a vibratory bowl feeder which is used by dumping one thousand or more primers in to slowly feed into drop tube is a feature I no longer use because the visual inspection was not possible. Finding the "anvil" or two in the feeder is not good knowing that somewhere in the batch you have a least two that will fail to fire and could be a life or death situation. These became "practice" loads used by "family" knowing there would be a couple of failures. (Family is Friends you chose for yourself.)

If you choose to reload your self defense or hunting loads, be extra careful with all details. I reload hunting ammo for 4 guys who hunt all over the free world and they love my ammo and that I have provided it free or near free. One shooter got 89 (300WSM) cartridges loaded with 150 (nickel) Ballistic Tip and 180 Nosler Partition loaded to match factory for free for helping restore electrical to my house in January, another farmer who lets me shoot 50BMG at steel on his property received 180 cartridges loaded with 180 grain Ballistic Tips at 3100 fps, another guy received 180 (300 Weatherby Mag) loaded with Accubond projectiles at 3200 fps (that gun hurt me while testing) and I also reset his trigger from 9+ pounds to 2 pounds (he is really happy and noticed immediately his accuracy increased greatly), another has received some reduced power loads for his 300WinMag to help him with his flinch (he only has one arm which is extremely strong). Two others are collecting cartridge cases for their rifles, I required once fired in their rifles before I load them (300WSM and 270 Weatherby Mag). Game taken has been 12 elk in Colorado over two years, 5 caribou in Quebec in one year, and one Red Stag in New Zealand, among many deer taken locally.
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Re: 10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby OldmanFCSA on Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:23 am

linksep wrote:How do you push-through resize a tapered case without getting something stuck?

.
For 40S&W I use a reversed procedure that pushes the case thru the die base first which also results in primer being removed. This allows for easy reloading in my Dillons. It is another operation but gets rid of the dreaded "Glock Bulge" by reforming bulge material back into original location on the case body.

9mm is a bit more tricky due to tapered case. Very close visual inspection or measurement before loading catches most all bad cases. Use your once-fired cases to be sure
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Re: 10X (Blue Lakes) Ammo

Postby linksep on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:40 pm

I know about push through resizing for .40 S&W, I put a range pick-up .32ACP upside-down inside a 9x19, then used that assembly as a pusher to head-first push-through resize 1,000+ .40 S&W. I'm just thinking a 9x19 case is .380" at the mouth and .394" at the base. Wouldn't a full-length sizing die for 9x19 measure something like .378"-.380" ID at the top to size the case down to .380" at the mouth? How do you run a .394" base through a .378"-.380" hole without getting things stuck or eliminating the (slight) taper that is part of the specification for 9x19 cases?

Do 9x19 dies really just have .392"-.394" holes in them (no taper) to only resize near the base?
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