Blue Dot powder and 357 Magnum

[Veldy]

I occasionally carry a Ruger SP101 357 Magnum (3-1/16" barrel), but have tended to avoid it with preference to the 45ACP SW1911PD (5" barrel) due to better accuracy (for me) and still maintaining good stopping power; it is slim and believe it or not, it is barely noticeable under a tee shirt with jean shorts inside an in the waist band holster, at least for a guy of my size.

So, the main reason for this post. A while back Alliant didn't test their powder very well [scary huh?] and they posted a warning not to use Blue Dot with 357 magnum loads. I have some excellent 125gr JHP bullets for this ammo and would like to use Blue Dot; just to test it out and target shoot. I did test Blue Dot for 357 awhile back with minimal load when started loading for it, but before I was made aware of the warning. Anyway, I want to know if people have been loading with this powder in spite of the warning.

So, my plan. 12gr Bluedot topped with a 125gr Montana Gold JHP in Federal Nickel cases and CCI500 primers. This seems like a good range round. I can test the velocity of the bullet, but I have no way to know the peak pressure before the bullet exits the barrel. I am sure with a fairly slow burning powder, there is a chance that the peak pressure won't be reached anyway with a 3-1/16" barrel, which is why I am considering trying this with increased load.

I normally use 2400 for my Magnum loads, but for target shooting that can get expensive [even Bluedot is rather expensive compared to 231 for instance]. I have had such great success with H.Universal Clays in 45 ACP, that I really don't plan to use Bluedot for these loads which leaves me with a lack of a good use for the Bluedot (9mm is OK, but it doesn't meter that well, and for 9mm, that introduces a lot of fluctuation that I am not content with).

My real question is, and I know that this is sort of a "should I ignore the warning" type of question, but has anybody else gone ahead and loaded low to mid power 357 magnum loads with Bluedot made recently (2008 in my case) in spite of the warning?

Thanks!

[Seismic Sam]

If the Blue Dot problem is lot dependent (and it most likely is..) you ABSOLUTELY NEED to find out what lots were flagged with this warning. When you bought it doesn't mean Jack Shyte. I bought some Herco at the Frontiersman earlier this year that was 10 years old.

Speer 14 lists 125 grain bullets with 357 Mag cases at 11.5 to 13.0 grains of Blue Dot, so 12 should be fine, IF you don't have an affected lot of powder. Also, it doesn't list any warning. Nosler #6 doesn't have 125 grain bullet loads, and Hornady #7 doesn't mention Blue Dot at all.

Under no circumstances do you ignore a powder manufacturer's warning, period!! Some of the original lots of Retumbo were off in density, so if you just set your powder measure to a certain volume, those lots could seriously screw you up. (Retumbo is only for calibers that take about 100 grains of powder!!) As a result of that particular incident, I destroyed every powder measure setting for set charge weights that I had been gathering for 30 years.

Your assumption that "maybe" the pressure in the case won't make it up to max in a snubbie is a horrible, horrible, assumption that you have no data to support, and could quite easily get you killed if you actually depended on it. You NEVER assume ANYTHING about handloading variables like this without having some way of testing it, which would require a pressure barrel with a piezoelectric transducer in this case. Oh, and BTW, if you assumption about the pressure is right, then your shot-to-shot variability will be monumentally horseshyte, because there is no way any load that has only achieved partial pressure can be consistent.

And in closing, I have come to the conclusion that I am sick and tired of trying to lecture people about handloading, and had made up my mind to NEVER do it again as a result of my latest flame war with a newbie. While most of the questions that were asked here were specific and the person has handloading experience, the assumption about the pressure not reacing max in a snubbie has once again gotten the better of me. Sorry about that, people, but I really am making a sincere effort to STFU for good, which will make this subforum a kinder and gentler place. I'm old, and I'm tired to death of this shyte, and I just can't put up with it anymore. Maybe ET came to the same conclusion before I did.

[Veldy]

If the Blue Dot problem is lot dependent (and it most likely is..) you ABSOLUTELY NEED to find out what lots were flagged with this warning. When you bought it doesn't mean Jack Shyte. I bought some Herco at the Frontiersman earlier this year that was 10 years old.

Speer 14 lists 125 grain bullets with 357 Mag cases at 11.5 to 13.0 grains of Blue Dot, so 12 should be fine, IF you don't have an affected lot of powder. Also, it doesn't list any warning. Nosler #6 doesn't have 125 grain bullet loads, and Hornady #7 doesn't mention Blue Dot at all.

Under no circumstances do you ignore a powder manufacturer's warning, period!! Some of the original lots of Retumbo were off in density, so if you just set your powder measure to a certain volume, those lots could seriously screw you up. (Retumbo is only for calibers that take about 100 grains of powder!!) As a result of that particular incident, I destroyed every powder measure setting for set charge weights that I had been gathering for 30 years.

Your assumption that "maybe" the pressure in the case won't make it up to max in a snubbie is a horrible, horrible, assumption that you have no data to support, and could quite easily get you killed if you actually depended on it. You NEVER assume ANYTHING about handloading variables like this without having some way of testing it, which would require a pressure barrel with a piezoelectric transducer in this case. Oh, and BTW, if you assumption about the pressure is right, then your shot-to-shot variability will be monumentally horseshyte, because there is no way any load that has only achieved partial pressure can be consistent.

And in closing, I have come to the conclusion that I am sick and tired of trying to lecture people about handloading, and had made up my mind to NEVER do it again as a result of my latest flame war with a newbie. While most of the questions that were asked here were specific and the person has handloading experience, the assumption about the pressure not reacing max in a snubbie has once again gotten the better of me. Sorry about that, people, but I really am making a sincere effort to STFU for good, which will make this subforum a kinder and gentler place. I'm old, and I'm tired to death of this shyte, and I just can't put up with it anymore. Maybe ET came to the same conclusion before I did.

This is exactly what I asked. Because there was no warning until AFTER I loaded and shot one batch of ammo (minimal load), I know there must be some limit. It seems to me that if the powder is so far off as to be outright dangerous [it is not as if handloaders .... especially those not Internet connected, would necessarily have received these warnings ... further the warning was for one caliber only]. If it was that dangerous, I think Alliant should have recalled all the powder shipped in the affected batches. They did not do so.

My question was simple ... are there people out there shooting a similar load successfully (perhaps because they didn't know about the warning or didn't know about it until after shooting hundreds of rounds). I have the ability to measure velocity, but I can't measure peak pressure in the chamber, which is what the warning was about.

I have found myself gravitating away from Alliant powders due to the fact that they are hugely dirty (i.e. Bullseye), incompletely burn (Bluedot unless shooting full power loads), Unique (hard to consistently measure without weighing each and every charge). In fact, the only Alliant powder that I do like is 2400 and it appears that Winchester 296 may be a more accurate powder anyway. And then with the "warnings" that aren't even displayed in some places that I visit and are not mentioned online when you buy the powder (I never noticed anything on Cabela's or Midway's website).

I didn't come here asking for or deserving a lecture. I came here asking for experience and listed exactly what I am considering doing. I don't want to hear, "it should be safe, go ahead and try it", I want to hear, "I have been shooting a similar or more powerful load in this particular gun without incident". I think that avoids liability issues for all parties and it is simply a data point for me to decide whether to consider trying it. Like I said, smaller loads did indeed prove successful for me [but I didn't measure the velocity as I didn't have the capability at the time and didn't know I should be checking it for that particular powder considering the warning] and of course I have no idea of the pressure in the chamber [unless Alliant supplies pressure data for that particular batch].

Judging by your lengthy response and this quote, "And in closing, I have come to the conclusion that I am sick and tired of trying to lecture people about handloading, and had made up my mind to NEVER do it again as a result of my latest flame war with a newbie.", I guess I don't believe you

Thanks for your advise, even though I am fully aware of all that you have mentioned. That is why I am asking for actual data. There are bound to be plenty of people out there that did not know about the warning and continued to work up loads based on long time recipes that they have always used and it is this data I am looking for. Anybody care to point out what batch they are/were using would be greatly appreciated. Mine is from Feb 2008, although I don't have the batch number at hand right now ... I am going down stairs to do some loading right now. If read about a lot of affirmatives, then I will work up to that load slowly and carefully, like any other, but if I read that people were having trouble with bulged cases or other pressure signs, then I won't even bother working up the load at all. The fact that they did not recall the affected batches of powder suggests to me that either ATK would find it cheaper to deal with individual cases in court [which means they deserve to leave the business] or that the difference was enough to affect maximum loads published in some historical or current texts and the lawyers want to stay well clear of any problems, but that there really isn't a safety issue for people sticking to published recipes from reputable resources. I didn't ask this without thinking it through.

BTW ... I NEVER load powder by volume and ALWAYS load by weight. So, I log the volume setting for a given load, but then I adjust each and every time I load so that I am loading exactly the amount by weight of powder intended which is exactly why I HATE the Lee disc based system.

[Pinnacle]

I would heed the powder manufacturers warning.

Reloading is a science that is not exactly well exact. There are variations and rules. We control the variables and MUST follow the rules.

Blue Dot is a slower powder for sure but it aint that slow. It reaches full power really quickily. I load a lot of it in 9mm and get great results. Small case short bbl and good velocity numbers oh and BTW pretty stout pressures. BD peaks a hell of a lot faster than what we would consider to be slow powders like 2400 or H110.

Assuming that you will not get full pressure out of a short bbl is certainly an assumption that you should not make - dangerous assumption.

Your load looks safe theoretically - and is a listed load and from my experience - it seems ok but remember to be careful - work up slowly - get a chrony to shoot over and crimp well.

[Pinnacle]

If the Blue Dot problem is lot dependent (and it most likely is..) you ABSOLUTELY NEED to find out what lots were flagged with this warning. When you bought it doesn't mean Jack Shyte. I bought some Herco at the Frontiersman earlier this year that was 10 years old.

Speer 14 lists 125 grain bullets with 357 Mag cases at 11.5 to 13.0 grains of Blue Dot, so 12 should be fine, IF you don't have an affected lot of powder. Also, it doesn't list any warning. Nosler #6 doesn't have 125 grain bullet loads, and Hornady #7 doesn't mention Blue Dot at all.

Under no circumstances do you ignore a powder manufacturer's warning, period!! Some of the original lots of Retumbo were off in density, so if you just set your powder measure to a certain volume, those lots could seriously screw you up. (Retumbo is only for calibers that take about 100 grains of powder!!) As a result of that particular incident, I destroyed every powder measure setting for set charge weights that I had been gathering for 30 years.

Your assumption that "maybe" the pressure in the case won't make it up to max in a snubbie is a horrible, horrible, assumption that you have no data to support, and could quite easily get you killed if you actually depended on it. You NEVER assume ANYTHING about handloading variables like this without having some way of testing it, which would require a pressure barrel with a piezoelectric transducer in this case. Oh, and BTW, if you assumption about the pressure is right, then your shot-to-shot variability will be monumentally horseshyte, because there is no way any load that has only achieved partial pressure can be consistent.

And in closing, I have come to the conclusion that I am sick and tired of trying to lecture people about handloading, and had made up my mind to NEVER do it again as a result of my latest flame war with a newbie. While most of the questions that were asked here were specific and the person has handloading experience, the assumption about the pressure not reacing max in a snubbie has once again gotten the better of me. Sorry about that, people, but I really am making a sincere effort to STFU for good, which will make this subforum a kinder and gentler place. I'm old, and I'm tired to death of this shyte, and I just can't put up with it anymore. Maybe ET came to the same conclusion before I did.

This is exactly what I asked. Because there was no warning until AFTER I loaded and shot one batch of ammo (minimal load), I know there must be some limit. It seems to me that if the powder is so far off as to be outright dangerous [it is not as if handloaders .... especially those not Internet connected, would necessarily have received these warnings ... further the warning was for one caliber only]. If it was that dangerous, I think Alliant should have recalled all the powder shipped in the affected batches. They did not do so.

My question was simple ... are there people out there shooting a similar load successfully (perhaps because they didn't know about the warning or didn't know about it until after shooting hundreds of rounds). I have the ability to measure velocity, but I can't measure peak pressure in the chamber, which is what the warning was about.

I have found myself gravitating away from Alliant powders due to the fact that they are hugely dirty (i.e. Bullseye), incompletely burn (Bluedot unless shooting full power loads), Unique (hard to consistently measure without weighing each and every charge). In fact, the only Alliant powder that I do like is 2400 and it appears that Winchester 296 may be a more accurate powder anyway. And then with the "warnings" that aren't even displayed in some places that I visit and are not mentioned online when you buy the powder (I never noticed anything on Cabela's or Midway's website).

I didn't come here asking for or deserving a lecture. I came here asking for experience and listed exactly what I am considering doing. I don't want to hear, "it should be safe, go ahead and try it", I want to hear, "I have been shooting a similar or more powerful load in this particular gun without incident". I think that avoids liability issues for all parties and it is simply a data point for me to decide whether to consider trying it. Like I said, smaller loads did indeed prove successful for me [but I didn't measure the velocity as I didn't have the capability at the time and didn't know I should be checking it for that particular powder considering the warning] and of course I have no idea of the pressure in the chamber [unless Alliant supplies pressure data for that particular batch].

Judging by your lengthy response and this quote, "And in closing, I have come to the conclusion that I am sick and tired of trying to lecture people about handloading, and had made up my mind to NEVER do it again as a result of my latest flame war with a newbie.", I guess I don't believe you

Thanks for your advise, even though I am fully aware of all that you have mentioned. That is why I am asking for actual data. There are bound to be plenty of people out there that did not know about the warning and continued to work up loads based on long time recipes that they have always used and it is this data I am looking for. Anybody care to point out what batch they are/were using would be greatly appreciated. Mine is from Feb 2008, although I don't have the batch number at hand right now ... I am going down stairs to do some loading right now. If read about a lot of affirmatives, then I will work up to that load slowly and carefully, like any other, but if I read that people were having trouble with bulged cases or other pressure signs, then I won't even bother working up the load at all. The fact that they did not recall the affected batches of powder suggests to me that either ATK would find it cheaper to deal with individual cases in court [which means they deserve to leave the business] or that the difference was enough to affect maximum loads published in some historical or current texts and the lawyers want to stay well clear of any problems, but that there really isn't a safety issue for people sticking to published recipes from reputable resources. I didn't ask this without thinking it through.

BTW ... I NEVER load powder by volume and ALWAYS load by weight. So, I log the volume setting for a given load, but then I adjust each and every time I load so that I am loading exactly the amount by weight of powder intended which is exactly why I HATE the Lee disc based system.

I pretty much stick to Alliant powders when I can - just because I have loaded thousands of pounds of the stuff over the years and it is like mammas cooking to me.

Unique sucks for just about every reason and it is also the perfect powder for a lot of the same reasons - dirty but just as powerful as bullseye at a slightly slower rate.

Bullseye is as dirty as coal. But it works like a champ - you have to clean guns anyhow.

Try power pistol for a clean burning small capacity case pistol powder - clean and snappy. Nice stuff.

296/H110/2400 are close and in the same class - but are certainly not the same.

I love H110 for FULL POWER 357's

My point is - there are a lot of powders that will do what you want better than Blue Dot - but will perhaps cost a penny more to load safely.

357 is pretty powerful stuff - high pressure high velocity magnum medicine. Perhaps a powder suited better to the role would be a better choice.

PM me for more info on BD

[Veldy]

I would heed the powder manufacturers warning.

Reloading is a science that is not exactly well exact. There are variations and rules. We control the variables and MUST follow the rules.

Blue Dot is a slower powder for sure but it aint that slow. It reaches full power really quickily. I load a lot of it in 9mm and get great results. Small case short bbl and good velocity numbers oh and BTW pretty stout pressures. BD peaks a hell of a lot faster than what we would consider to be slow powders like 2400 or H110.

Assuming that you will not get full pressure out of a short bbl is certainly an assumption that you should not make - dangerous assumption.

Your load looks safe theoretically - and is a listed load and from my experience - it seems ok but remember to be careful - work up slowly - get a chrony to shoot over and crimp well.

I intentionally chose a "middle of the road" load; stout enough for worthwhile practice, but cheaper than shooting 2400. I used to use Unique in target practice, but it just doesn't have the snap that 2400 has and I am hoping Blue Dot does. I am not going to waste my time working up a load via repeated runs to the range if I don't read that at least a few people here have been shooting similar or stouter loads without incident. I do have a chrony, but I rarely use it for ammo intended for target practice [in this case I would]. If I work up full power loads, then I might haul it with me to the range.

[Vlad]

OK, flame suit on,
for mid range practice stuff, what about 38 special? smaller case, easy to load. easy to keep the hunting and target stuff seperated... Just a thought.

[jac714]

OK, flame suit on,
for mid range practice stuff, what about 38 special? smaller case, easy to load. easy to keep the hunting and target stuff seperated... Just a thought.

Thats what I do, .38 for practice adn .357 for hunting/field.

[Veldy]

OK, flame suit on,
for mid range practice stuff, what about 38 special? smaller case, easy to load. easy to keep the hunting and target stuff seperated... Just a thought.

Funny ... I just loaded some Bluedot into 38 special Federal Nickel cases (+P). 6.6 gr with 160gr LRN over the top (Lyman #358311), OAL = 1.513 crimped into the crimping groove. Off topic, why does the Lyman loading data state a OAL that doesn't match up with the crimping groove? I chose a higher load than -10% because it will be fired in a 357 magnum and the cases are +P. So, for the likes of one alien here, I should probably put my flame suite on

[Pinnacle]

OK, flame suit on,
for mid range practice stuff, what about 38 special? smaller case, easy to load. easy to keep the hunting and target stuff seperated... Just a thought.

Funny ... I just loaded some Bluedot into 38 special Federal Nickel cases (+P). 6.6 gr with 160gr LRN over the top (Lyman #358311), OAL = 1.513 crimped into the crimping groove. Off topic, why does the Lyman loading data state a OAL that doesn't match up with the crimping groove? I chose a higher load than -10% because it will be fired in a 357 magnum and the cases are +P. So, for the likes of one alien here, I should probably put my flame suite on

Wow... We need to talk my friend. ........

I think that some private reloading guidance is in order.

[MrVvrroomm]

Just an FYI regarding Blue Dot and .357 magnum loads. The warning is ONLY for 125 grain projectiles. They list load data for other weight bullets, just warn against using it with 125 gr's.

[Veldy]

Just an FYI regarding Blue Dot and .357 magnum loads. The warning is ONLY for 125 grain projectiles. They list load data for other weight bullets, just warn against using it with 125 gr's.

I thought that I recall it being for 125gr and above for 357 and ALL 41 cal.

[MrVvrroomm]

Just an FYI regarding Blue Dot and .357 magnum loads. The warning is ONLY for 125 grain projectiles. They list load data for other weight bullets, just warn against using it with 125 gr's.

I thought that I recall it being for 125gr and above for 357 and ALL 41 cal.

[Veldy]

Just an FYI regarding Blue Dot and .357 magnum loads. The warning is ONLY for 125 grain projectiles. They list load data for other weight bullets, just warn against using it with 125 gr's.

I thought that I recall it being for 125gr and above for 357 and ALL 41 cal.

Ah yes, I guess my memory failed me. It's a wonder if it really a warning as I challenge you to find the notice on Alliant's website. I certainly have been unable to do so. Just references to copies that others have made. Apparently Alliant no longer feels it necessary to post the information and the certainly don't break it down by batch number or date. I still think it is a case of the ATK lawyer being more cautious than the Herco lawyer

[Pinnacle]

There are a lot of options out there other than BD for 357 - heck there are even better choices. I firmly believe that when you want to make a magnum load use MAGNUM Powders specifically designed for that purpose.

Follow the books - use 296 or H110 and HEED THE WARNINGS ABOUT MAGNUM PISTOL POWDERS and you will be fine.