grousemaster wrote:This just isn't true. It's your opinion, I get that. Noone in the cover dog world focuses on retrieving, so it's not just Steve your parting ways with...it' most of the setter world
I should hope the cover dog circuit does not shoot birds, most of their trials are far outside the hunting seasons. I'm glad you added that smilie to the sentence as the cover dog people are far from representing the setter world. Even adding in the rest of the trials one will find a number of them have retrieving requirements . Then there are the field tests which seem to all have retrieving as a requirement whether NAVHDA, NSTRA, AKC and others.I suspect the number of setters registered in NAVHDA are pretty close to the number in the cover dog arena though I can't find numbers for the latter. From personal experience with the American Bird Hunters Association and the related U.S. Bird Hunters Association, they dropped the retrieving portion of their trials due to the cost of insurance as live ammo was required, not for retrieving to be unnecessary.
grousemaster wrote:It's no wonder why a retriever wins the retrieving championships, they are better retrievers....as a result of hundreds of years of selective breeding. Setters are not the equal of a retriever or spaniel when it comes to retrieving. ****, they don't even have feet built for water!
Huh? I get the retriever part though a retriever test is not typical of even waterfowl hunting let alone upland hunting. Retriever trials are probably more about control over the dog than retrieving, at least that is my take on what I have seen. As many retrievers who wash out of trials have gone on to make superb hunting dogs, that is not necessarily a fair comparison. What I really don't get is the feet part. All the setters and the pointer I owned swam very well, the one was the second fastest of all the dogs entered in the water retrieve event at Game Fair two different years. That is not a definitive measure but considering the number of retriever breeds entered, that is kind of noticeable. That one and others have also been fast enough to catch crippled ducks though not in waters much more than 10 acres in size and they very rarely had to break ice to do so.
grousemaster wrote:Bringing shot game to hand is not the most important thing for all hunters, as a matter of fact, it's so unimportant in cover dog trials that it's not even judged. Finding shot game is very important, and it's nice to have a dog that will retrieve.....but locating and setting birds is by far and away the most important aspect for a setter, and it's what they have been bred for and judged by for a long time. Especially for a grouse dog when retrieves across water are somewhat rare. When grouse hunting I can't think of a more important thing for a dog to be doing than covering lots of ground and pointing on first scent. After that comes steady to flush and shot.....and then finding dead birds.
When it comes to setters, retrieving just isn't a priority for most folks, and the breed was never meant to do it. I have one that retrieves naturally and it does't bother me any...although I'd prefer if my dogs never touched the bird (aside from me giving them a sniff of it and pat on the head). With pheasants it's another game, my dogs will find dead but just sit over the top off it, unless the bird is still alive...then they will pin it until I arrive. Pheasants are a pain with pointing dogs IMO, I get sick of the multiple relocation's on running birds....
As I already mentioned, cover dog trials are most often held in the spring when it is illegal to shoot wild birds. Retrieving was not a priority until the advent of firearms capable of taking flying game, then retrieving was an important part of a pointing dog's capability. In England, the land where pointing traits were honed, it is still common for pointing dogs to be used as non-slip retrievers during driven shoots. The English seem to put practicality at the top of the list in their hunting dogs, of all breeds.
The earliest field trials incorporated retrieving along with finding, the dropping of the retrieve portion in some trials began about 80 years ago with the shortening of seasons and decrease of wild birds. There are even trials in which pointing dogs are run which do not even require the dog to find birds, to judge pointing a bird will be placed in a patch of grass and the dog will be more or less lead to it to see if it will establish point. I hope that branch died off, it is a real travesty to the breed. Finding birds may be the most important job for a setter but I still feel putting shot birds in the bag is the most important job for the dog regardless of breed. That you place little importance on the matter is your opinion but one that I think more setter hunters will disagree with than agree.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I abhor losing game and regardless of what I hunt, it seems there is something somewhere which prevents me from making a retrieve whether it be water, brush, crippled game, etc. For that a dog which retrieves prevents the loss of game and is a boon to me. I have lost birds even with dogs which are good retrievers and there is nothing that puts a pall on a good day faster than losing game. At least to me.
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