September 10th - antlerless lottery

[FJ540]

How about not shooting any does for a couple years so we have more breeders and actually have a decent herd in the future?

Remember when you actually had options of which deer you wanted to shoot instead of shooting the first one you saw because it might be the last? We could go back to that, but the DNR isn't going to get us there. They want their license money, they don't seem to care about how many deer we actually have. Their records keeping, their accounting of herd surveys, etc, it's all faulty. They're guessing at how many deer we have - that's why we're having them audited.

[Ghost]

How about not shooting any does for a couple years so we have more breeders and actually have a decent herd in the future?

Sure take all the fun out of it.

[goalie]

How about not shooting any does for a couple years so we have more breeders and actually have a decent herd in the future?

Remember when you actually had options of which deer you wanted to shoot instead of shooting the first one you saw because it might be the last? We could go back to that, but the DNR isn't going to get us there. They want their license money, they don't seem to care about how many deer we actually have. Their records keeping, their accounting of herd surveys, etc, it's all faulty. They're guessing at how many deer we have - that's why we're having them audited.

I think it depends on where you are at. We selectively shoot cull bucks instead of does when possible, but, where I hunt, it doesn't really matter, as there are not a lot of hunters and a lot of deer. I doubt we impact the population much at all. Go further north into the Arrowhead, and the herd is tiny.

Location, location, location.

[FJ540]

The last time my zone was on "managed" we harvested 1100 antlerless deer total. This year we're on lottery (249) and there's 1500 doe tags available. Tell me how this is good for our herd? Everyone who wants a doe tag will probably get one. Whether or not they'll actually see any deer to shoot is the only question.

I was on stand around 9 days last year prior to the blizzard and saw 3 deer, and one of them 2x, so 4 total shot opportunities. One spike, one momma, and one fawn that just lost it's spots. Yet the neighbors see 13 deer in a field and think "oh, we have lots of deer!" Well, we have 30 some odd hunters on the block, so at a 50% success rate, that means there's none left standing at the end of the season.

If it was up to me, we'd have no doe tags this year or next. Herd is way down across the whole state (except for metro, since you can't hunt most of it) and the DNR has done it out of greed for the license revenue IMO.

[goalie]

Herd is way down across the whole state (except for metro, since you can't hunt most of it) and the DNR has done it out of greed for the license revenue IMO.

What makes you think the herd is way down all across the state? If anything, it has been up the last few years where I hunt. Ten years ago, we could go a few days without seeing a deer from the stand, the last several years neither of us has gone out for a few hours and NOT seen a deer.

[FJ540]

What area are you in?

Minnesota Deer Density Initiative is comprised of hunters from all over the state and the consensus is that the herd is down. Hunter satisfaction is down as well. I'm not involved with this group, but I am friends with several of the principals.

http://www.mndeerdensity.com/

[goalie]

What area are you in?

Minnesota Deer Density Initiative is comprised of hunters from all over the state and the consensus is that the herd is down. Hunter satisfaction is down as well. I'm not involved with this group, but I am friends with several of the principals.

http://www.mndeerdensity.com/

Hunter satisfaction eh? I know that I am 100% opposed to the use of "satisfaction" surveys as a key to reimbursement in health care. I also don't know why it would be a good metric for hunting.

I personally know several "hunters" who have yet to shoot a deer after years of trying. They may be dissatisfied, but they also suck at hunting.....

Of course, I am "lucky" when I get deer most every year, and usually a few extra in metro areas in the unlimited antlerless season with a bow and/or muzzle-loader.

I rifle hunt in 242 though, to answer the question. I have been seeing a lot up by my lake place near Perham as well though.

[FJ540]

Over-all harvest numbers are down from 10 years ago. Does that mean everyone sucks at hunting, or maybe there's not as many deer to shoot?

I've filled tags every year I've hunted after the first one (lottery, with no doe tag - saw a doe 3 of 7 days I was afield), and I chose to pass the deer I saw last year because the herd is down in my area.

[goalie]

Over-all harvest numbers are down from 10 years ago. Does that mean everyone sucks at hunting, or maybe there's not as many deer to shoot?

I've filled tags every year I've hunted after the first one (lottery, with no doe tag - saw a doe 3 of 7 days I was afield), and I chose to pass the deer I saw last year because the herd is down in my area.

The decimation of the herd in the arrowhead may have something to do with numbers being down. Considering that the DNR basically killed all the deer due to disease didn't do any favors to harvest numbers.

Overall numbers don't indicate that every zone has less deer per acre. That was my only point.

Well, that and that "satisfaction" is a really crappy metric to use to judge hunting conditions.

[OldmanFCSA]

I don't/won't hunt anymore due to condition of my legs - I tried last year and spent 6 additional hours after dark in woods hoping someone would find me after a fall thru the ice on a stream. I made it out of stream but was too exhausted and weak to make it all the way back. The stuff in my backpack saved me, so pack for the conditions, whether human or nature. A friend found me, went back for a 4-wheeler, hauled me back to her cabin. She has unlimited hunting rights to my land now.

Not me, or anyone I know - but I heard more WOLVES were shot than DEER in Northern Wisconsin during deer season.

[crbutler]

Where I am hunting, I will see 50+ deer a day, almost exclusively does and fawns, maybe the odd spike or forkhorn. Other areas in the same zone will be lucky to see one a day...who has the norm of the area?

The density metric they used to use was based off of deer car collision insurance claims. Pretty accurate for deer density.

Personally, I would like the herd more managed for trophy quality, but that is just me, I really fail to see the point in shooting a yearling spike or a small 8 pointer in areas where you can get a free doe... But everyone does it... Part of why I don't allow people on my land. I used to say they were welcome to shoot a doe, but no bucks, and every year someone would shoot a spike or a 2 year old deer. Enough.

I also agree that "Hunter satisfaction" surveys are crap. Manage scientifically for whatever the legislated goal is and leave wishes out of it.

Personally, I feel if the hunting is good you will have people coming out of the woodwork to go... If it is poor, then license sales fall. Wonder why hunting is not as popular? There you go.

[FJ540]

So you're saying hunting is poor so satisfaction surveys don't mean anything when they coincide with your statement of it being poor...

We used to be among the top Pope and Young states for entries every year, and now there's only a handful over 125 inches being shot here. But hunter satisfaction doesn't mean anything...

[crbutler]

You don't get it.

Hunter satisfaction surveys are rigged to get an answer that the person writing the survey wants.

If hunting is good, folks will buy licenses. If it isn't, a good share will not. Some of us do anyhow, as the actual shooting of game is secondary as to why we are out there.

Tell me, why do we still have a youth waterfowl hunt? Most experienced hunters agree it adversely affects the regular opener... I haven't seen a good duck opener in 7-8 years.

As to Pope and Young... That is bow hunting only. MN deer season pretty much guarantees the big deer will come then, as it is months longer and much less pressure, with the more experienced hunters being predominant.

I would be much more interested in Boone and Crockett numbers... Much harder to make, no weapon restrictions, and MN wa never really a big number getter there. We have always been managed for total deer kill and "Hunter satisfaction" in this state. We still have OTC buck hunting here, right?

Don't get me wrong, if the herd is really hurting in an area, cutting the kill is the only wise thing to do, that should include cutting total license numbers, but you need to address other issues as well, in this case, predation. Wolves and coyotes are a big problem. Zoonotic diseases from excessive concentrations are another. In this case, if you are not in the wolf zone, you are seeing the result of MN Deer Hunters Assn's lobbying efforts... More deer until they get killed by starvation or disease.

In any case, the kid rule (under a certain age, may shoot antler less) and the pressure to keep success up (doe tags) will preclude them cutting the doe harvest dramatically for the very reason you seem to be espousing... Hunter satisfaction surveys.

[photogpat]

When whitetails per square mile reaches a point too high (over carrying capacity) - the landscape suffers from over-browsing. Just look at the browse line on the trees/brush in many areas. You get a failure of certain tree/brushy species to regenerate -- and a complete failure of white pine regeneration in the north. Instead you get a take-over of low value browse, and trash species.

When whitetails per square mile reaches a point too low - hunters all complain - and the DNR tries to reshuffle the deck. Finding that sweet spot in the middle appears to be what the DNR is trying (failing?) to find. Weather, increased depredation, etc all play a role -- and the forecasts aren't always right. FJ likes to taunt hunters that shoot the first thing they see...but if it's a typical season, and they pass on the first doe/spike they see, they won't see another. Same problem for those of us who hunt public land...you pass on that small buck...the guy right down the hill from you will take it, and its out of the gene pool regardless.

In my zone (155) - I fully expect some seasons where I shoot nothing...its generally a very swampy area with low value forage, high hunter pressure, and small antlered bucks from the low mineral soil. I let the small bucks go out of principle, but I usually hear a bang further down the trail from the next door neighbor. Try talking to him about quality deer management, and he points to his freezer. I can't afford to buy/rent a large enough plot myself, and creating better habitat on the small parcel I utilize only makes for better deer for everyone else to shoot - ditto passing on does/spikes.

Antler point restrictions everywhere the solution then? Might be. Self-management for antlers only works with large areas of private land with little hunting pressure. Fewer doe tags? Then you get over-browsing. Now you see the conundrum. A lot of guys like to have something in the freezer.

Important point not to forget, whitetails aren't native to the northern half of the state - they're a "recent" introduction after all the large pines were logged off during the last part of the 19th, and first part of the 20th centuries. They moved in after the caribou left, and the forest is still trying to find an equilibrium.

Could also be that some hunters (the most vocal ones) don't really understand what a "normal" population of whitetails in their hunting area looks like. You may not always get a deer every year...

Justa sayin....my main attraction to deer season is deer camp anyways.

[Ghost]

Personally, I would like the herd more managed for trophy quality, but that is just me, I really fail to see the point in shooting a yearling spike or a small 8 pointer in areas where you can get a free doe... But everyone does it...

This. I have no problem popping a deformed buck to get him out of the gene pool if need be but my rule of thumb is that I won't shoot a buck unless it's big enough to go on my wall, which means bigger than my last wall hanger. Was disappointed last year because I misjudged the size of this buck (video below) and would have rather let him walk but he likely wouldn't have made it to this year anyway. He was also the first deer I had seen after sitting all day in the stand so guess I got buck fever, he had a nice body though and was a lot of work as I hunt by myself.

BUCK VIDEO

To FJ's point, where I grew up (Iowa) when I started hunting, bucks were the only thing I was allowed to shoot on our farm and by the time I was in high school and college I was told to buy 15 $1 land owner bonus tags a year and fill them with does, there was way too many deer. A family member had counted 85 deer standing in a 50 acre field. Large bucks got mighty scarce.

Hunting in 214 and bought the bonus tag but likely I won't need or use it.