2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby Ghost on Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:00 pm

BigBlue wrote:The whole premise that a youth needs to be fully outfitted from scratch to go hunting seems flawed to me. If someone is taking a youth hunting, I'd say in most cases they (the adult) has much of the equipment, especially firearms, to take them on an intro hunting session. After all, the accompanying parent/guardian/mentor CAN'T HUNT during the youth deer season so their gun is available. (see https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/deer/youth.html) The concept that someone is going out and buying a gun for their first hunt "just to try out the sport" does not resonate with me, certainly not as a "can't do it without buying one" case.

I shot my first deer with my grandpa’s single shot 16 gauge. I never found bird hunting that interesting.
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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby crbutler on Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:06 pm

Note that an adult wasn’t required to hunt with a kid over 13. So 13-17 got an extra 4 day season.

Same thing for waterfowl youth day. IIRC if you are over 13 with a firearms safety certificate you could on your own. If you were 16+ you had to have a federal duck stamp.
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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby photogpat on Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:40 pm

Access and time. Gear is secondary. Give someone, whether it’s a child, a co worker, a friend, a neighbor, etc...access to hunting and give them time to do it...and you’ll have retained the next Gen.

Too many people these days have their slice of heaven, and refuse to share...whether it’s sharing their knowledge, time or land...we need to have more of that.

I hope that all the youth who went on Youth Weekend continue to go. I have my doubts.
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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby smurfman on Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:40 pm

BigBlue wrote:The whole premise that a youth needs to be fully outfitted from scratch to go hunting seems flawed to me. If someone is taking a youth hunting, I'd say in most cases they (the adult) has much of the equipment, especially firearms, to take them on an intro hunting session. After all, the accompanying parent/guardian/mentor CAN'T HUNT during the youth deer season so their gun is available. (see https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/deer/youth.html) The concept that someone is going out and buying a gun for their first hunt "just to try out the sport" does not resonate with me, certainly not as a "can't do it without buying one" case.


The question is not on recruiting newcomers, often kids, from hunting families; it is recruitment of individuals of all ages who have no hunting history in their families or immediate circle of friends. These people have no one to borrow or be gifted equipment so have to buy everything from scratch. Some may have had very limited hunting experience as a kid but life's circumstances removed them from that location and/or help. Now, they are looking at getting back into the sport from the very beginning. I deal with these types at least once a week at work, you can see by the expression on their faces that the cost is often more than they expected. We are a long way from the $150 Marlin 336, $200 Wingmaster, and $79 10/22 they remember of their youth.

This "sticker shock" is readily seen by the advent of firearms such as the Remington 870 Express, Mossberg/Maverick 88, Savage Axis, Ruger American Rifle, and even the Mossberg Plinkster. One can go back even further looking at the Remington 700 ADL, Winchester 770, and Winchester 25. Even the 870 Wingmaster was an attempt at producing a less expensive shotgun to the general public when it was first introduced.

I'm in agreement with crbutler that something other than youth days are needed to advance hunting into the future. Youth hunting opportunities seem to be far over represented by those in hunting families. This makes for a very linear pattern and little ability to grow. What is needed is getting those with no history in the shooting world a chance to step in. Branching out into this demographic is the key to actual growth.
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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby Holland&Holland on Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:41 pm

smurfman wrote:
BigBlue wrote:The whole premise that a youth needs to be fully outfitted from scratch to go hunting seems flawed to me. If someone is taking a youth hunting, I'd say in most cases they (the adult) has much of the equipment, especially firearms, to take them on an intro hunting session. After all, the accompanying parent/guardian/mentor CAN'T HUNT during the youth deer season so their gun is available. (see https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/deer/youth.html) The concept that someone is going out and buying a gun for their first hunt "just to try out the sport" does not resonate with me, certainly not as a "can't do it without buying one" case.


The question is not on recruiting newcomers, often kids, from hunting families; it is recruitment of individuals of all ages who have no hunting history in their families or immediate circle of friends. These people have no one to borrow or be gifted equipment so have to buy everything from scratch. Some may have had very limited hunting experience as a kid but life's circumstances removed them from that location and/or help. Now, they are looking at getting back into the sport from the very beginning. I deal with these types at least once a week at work, you can see by the expression on their faces that the cost is often more than they expected. We are a long way from the $150 Marlin 336, $200 Wingmaster, and $79 10/22 they remember of their youth.

This "sticker shock" is readily seen by the advent of firearms such as the Remington 870 Express, Mossberg/Maverick 88, Savage Axis, Ruger American Rifle, and even the Mossberg Plinkster. One can go back even further looking at the Remington 700 ADL, Winchester 770, and Winchester 25. Even the 870 Wingmaster was an attempt at producing a less expensive shotgun to the general public when it was first introduced.

I'm in agreement with crbutler that something other than youth days are needed to advance hunting into the future. Youth hunting opportunities seem to be far over represented by those in hunting families. This makes for a very linear pattern and little ability to grow. What is needed is getting those with no history in the shooting world a chance to step in. Branching out into this demographic is the key to actual growth.


So what do you suggest? The youth season is only for people who have not hunted before? If they have bought a license in the past they are disallowed?

No offense meant, but a $200 wingmaster had to be a very very long time ago.
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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby Holland&Holland on Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:44 pm

crbutler wrote:Not trying to get personal here.

Whenever someone starts going on about how much they do, there is always someone else who has done more who doesn’t talk about it.

So...

Without trying to play oneupmanship, my contention is:

We do need to keep adding folks to the sport. How they are recruited is the question.

I don’t think having a special youth season really does much except degrades the experience for the rest who don’t have access to the special hunt.

Most all of the folks I see out are hunters who are bringing their relatives out on the youth days.

The kids do have high enthusiasm while they do the youth hunts. The actual recruitment (by numbers) seems small, at least from the vantage point of looking at statewide license purchase- ie, one would expect to see a spike in the 18-30 year group in waterfowl hunting by now if this method actually worked. That is actual qualitative data as opposed to anecdotal. There does not appear to be said spike. Why, if this is a productive measure?

Given that it does not seem to work, what other options do we have?

One that I think will pay dividends over time is the high school shooting sports. Trap is good. If we could add rimfire and or air rifle position shooting, that would give an additional sport that can be done when the weather is inclement.

As far as hunting goes, numbers seem to go up as access goes up. It’s not quite apples to apples, (but it is where I have seen serial numbers) is international big game hunting. When the economy goes south, the numbers drop. When regulations get added, and uncertainty increases (like the elephant and lion import difficulties) numbers drop significantly. So, when access and quality of experience drop, participation drops. When access (in particular financial availability) improves, numbers increase.

We seem to actually be in agreement that improved numbers of people who hunt are important.

I’m not at all convinced “youth days” are the best method.

Possibly allowing a new hunter or “apprentice” system that allows someone who takes hunter safety to hunt for free for 1-2 years regardless of age with a mentor, and reduced license fees for the “mentor”. Given how computerized the system is, it would not be that difficult to make this work, and it would target new hunters, not just the young ones.


Not opposed to this at all.
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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby Ghost on Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:27 pm

I’ve never been a fan of hunting seasons. I’d just like a license to use for one deer a year whenever I feel it works best for me and I can use whatever method allows an ethical harvest.
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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:38 am

Ghost wrote:I’ve never been a fan of hunting seasons. I’d just like a license to use for one deer a year whenever I feel it works best for me and I can use whatever method allows an ethical harvest.

That is a whole different theory on game management.
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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby BigBlue on Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:55 am

smurfman wrote:The question is not on recruiting newcomers, often kids, from hunting families; it is recruitment of individuals of all ages who have no hunting history in their families or immediate circle of friends. These people have no one to borrow or be gifted equipment so have to buy everything from scratch. Some may have had very limited hunting experience as a kid but life's circumstances removed them from that location and/or help. Now, they are looking at getting back into the sport from the very beginning. I deal with these types at least once a week at work, you can see by the expression on their faces that the cost is often more than they expected. We are a long way from the $150 Marlin 336, $200 Wingmaster, and $79 10/22 they remember of their youth.

This "sticker shock" is readily seen by the advent of firearms such as the Remington 870 Express, Mossberg/Maverick 88, Savage Axis, Ruger American Rifle, and even the Mossberg Plinkster. One can go back even further looking at the Remington 700 ADL, Winchester 770, and Winchester 25. Even the 870 Wingmaster was an attempt at producing a less expensive shotgun to the general public when it was first introduced.

I'm in agreement with crbutler that something other than youth days are needed to advance hunting into the future. Youth hunting opportunities seem to be far over represented by those in hunting families. This makes for a very linear pattern and little ability to grow. What is needed is getting those with no history in the shooting world a chance to step in. Branching out into this demographic is the key to actual growth.


I grew up in the 70's/80's and bought my 10/22 in the early 80's. It was more like $150-170 back then, which isn't THAT much different than the $229 (maybe $199 on sale) that they cost now. And a Remington 1100 was over $300. Prices are not dramatically more now, and are actually way less in real terms given inflation.

Your comments about "recruitment of individuals of all ages" seems to indicate that you're really talking more about the topic of bringing people into the sport than you are about the youth hunting season. The youth hunting season is only for people under 17 and they must be accompanied by an adult. So to me, it is a lot more likely that they are kids of hunters (or kids and their friends) being introduced to the sport than kids from non-hunting families. I'm sure your situation about total non-hunters happens but likely not nearly as often as what I describe. Now if the topic of this thread drifted to simply talking about introducing new people to the sport, outside of the youth season, then I guess that's a different conversation.

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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby Ghost on Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:13 am

Holland&Holland wrote:
Ghost wrote:I’ve never been a fan of hunting seasons. I’d just like a license to use for one deer a year whenever I feel it works best for me and I can use whatever method allows an ethical harvest.

That is a whole different theory on game management.

Sometimes I’d rather hunt in January than in November.
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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:00 am

Ghost wrote:
Holland&Holland wrote:
Ghost wrote:I’ve never been a fan of hunting seasons. I’d just like a license to use for one deer a year whenever I feel it works best for me and I can use whatever method allows an ethical harvest.

That is a whole different theory on game management.

Sometimes I’d rather hunt in January than in November.


I can see that.
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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby crbutler on Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:27 am

BigBlue wrote:
smurfman wrote:The question is not on recruiting newcomers, often kids, from hunting families; it is recruitment of individuals of all ages who have no hunting history in their families or immediate circle of friends. These people have no one to borrow or be gifted equipment so have to buy everything from scratch. Some may have had very limited hunting experience as a kid but life's circumstances removed them from that location and/or help. Now, they are looking at getting back into the sport from the very beginning. I deal with these types at least once a week at work, you can see by the expression on their faces that the cost is often more than they expected. We are a long way from the $150 Marlin 336, $200 Wingmaster, and $79 10/22 they remember of their youth.

This "sticker shock" is readily seen by the advent of firearms such as the Remington 870 Express, Mossberg/Maverick 88, Savage Axis, Ruger American Rifle, and even the Mossberg Plinkster. One can go back even further looking at the Remington 700 ADL, Winchester 770, and Winchester 25. Even the 870 Wingmaster was an attempt at producing a less expensive shotgun to the general public when it was first introduced.

I'm in agreement with crbutler that something other than youth days are needed to advance hunting into the future. Youth hunting opportunities seem to be far over represented by those in hunting families. This makes for a very linear pattern and little ability to grow. What is needed is getting those with no history in the shooting world a chance to step in. Branching out into this demographic is the key to actual growth.


I grew up in the 70's/80's and bought my 10/22 in the early 80's. It was more like $150-170 back then, which isn't THAT much different than the $229 (maybe $199 on sale) that they cost now. And a Remington 1100 was over $300. Prices are not dramatically more now, and are actually way less in real terms given inflation.

Your comments about "recruitment of individuals of all ages" seems to indicate that you're really talking more about the topic of bringing people into the sport than you are about the youth hunting season. The youth hunting season is only for people under 17 and they must be accompanied by an adult. So to me, it is a lot more likely that they are kids of hunters (or kids and their friends) being introduced to the sport than kids from non-hunting families. I'm sure your situation about total non-hunters happens but likely not nearly as often as what I describe. Now if the topic of this thread drifted to simply talking about introducing new people to the sport, outside of the youth season, then I guess that's a different conversation.

BB



You do realize that the over 13 crowd doesn’t need direct supervision and the 16+ guys can hunt by themselves?

Saw plenty of that both with waterfowl and with early deer this year.
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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby smurfman on Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:32 pm

$200 was the price of a 12 ga 870 Wingmaster in the fall of 1982 at Joe's Sporting Goods. I remember as it was $20 less than what I paid 5 years earlier for a 20 ga Wingmaster from the local hardware store. It taught me the value of checking around for prices. I paid $79 for my first 10/22 in 1987 as that was when Wal-Mart came to town and I had the local K-Mart price match. The manager was not happy to do so and was even less so when I used the family discount card to get an additional 10% off. The 336 was from K-Mart in 1984 or 1985 and was regular price.

Other prices I recall was a Browning Citori Hunter model in 410 for $650 from The Frontiersman in 1985 and a 16 ga Browning Citori Upland Special for $780 at Trails End/Bass Pro in 1989. If I would have bought the 16 ga in 1987 when I first planned it would have been closer to $700. The price went up when Browning announced the 16 ga was being discontinued. My first 870 Express was $119 on sale from K-Mart the first year it was offered with choke tubes. I think that was 1986. A Star PD was purchased for $230 and was the first semi-auto pistol I purchased in 1985.

I remember those prices, they were some milestones in my life. Later purchases are remember only if I paid significantly less than expected or if I still have the receipts.

I mentioned prices from the 1980s as the age of many newcomers/returnees seem to be in their mid-40s to mid-50s based on what I am seeing on the retail end. The common theme for first timers seems to be them having bought recreation land of some sort and would like to try hunting or an in law or coworker asked them along. Those getting back into hunting had only hunted a few times before life took them elsewhere. The invariably mention better financial conditions and leisure time. Even so, they are not buying Weatherby Mark Vs; Savage Axis is more their style.

This is the demographic that needs to be targeted. They have discretionary income and often have become accustomed to spending money on kids sports or their own hobbies and with the kids more or less on their own, a new revenue source for additional hobbies has emerged. Just because discretionary income increased doesn't mean the person will make all of it available, there will still be other endeavors pulling at the purse strings.

Focusing on kids is important but that may be 30 years down the line before results are seen. Once out from under the parents' financial wing discretionary income plummets as other needs or desires take precedence over shooting. From personal experience of my own circle of friends as well as those I met in college, few hunted even a handful of times while in college or trade school with those going straight to work or the military doing even less. When they stated families shooting often dropped off the screen. This age bracket is lost for the most part, other factors are priorities and many are justly so. Feelers have to be extended for shooting to remain relevant but the return on investment will be low.

My personal belief is programs need to be offered to older persons to introduce them to shooting and/or hunting. Probably the first step would be to get them shooting. I like the model the Horse and Hunt Club did back in the 1990s with their Women's Day at the Range events. All women were required to do was sign up and pay a relatively small fee that included firearms, ammo, eye/ear protection, instructors, and lunch. It was initially a one day event which had participants shooting 22 LR, 38 Spl, and 9mm pistols plus 22 LR rifles in the morning. The afternoon was shotgun instruction with a short sporting clays match ending the shooting. Drawing for door prizes ended the event.

I believe the NSSF provided all the firearms as well as a quantity of ammo. The instructors were all volunteers/volunteered with most certified instructors from some discipline. The 22 ammo went too fast so for following years I scrounged extra up from other sources. The first event filled in less than a week, later events in a day or maybe two.

The other event was shotgun only and ran two days. Shotguns could be provided but bringing your own was encouraged. Everything else was provided. The first day was instruction and shooting a short sporting clays course. The second was a warm up then a "buddy shoot" where a 50 bird course was shot with each team splitting the targets offered at a station. This was a great hit too and was a lot of fun.

Events like this except gearing towards both men and women I think would be very beneficial. Providing all the equipment and some instruction for a day or two would go a long ways toward bringing new, older, shooters into the fold.

For those that would like to try hunting, something like the various youth mentoring programs but geared towards adults would probably work. It could be special hunts such as the draws for parks or reduced fees for mentors or some other suggestion but some tangible reward would be appreciated.

Kids are good but their is a group right now that is being ignored and they shouldn't be. They are the ones with time, money and curiosity but mostly no one reaching out to them or offering a hand. Pull these people in and there will not only be an immediate increase but they will also draw at least some of their children and grandchildren in at later dates.
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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:41 pm

I thought you said they could not afford $500? Yet now you say they have discretionary income.

Also, no one in there mid 40s was buying guns in 1982 unless it used rolls of caps.

Get adults out if you want you should have plenty of funds to do so with your firearm investments. But, don't poo poo those of us who get kids out.
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Re: 2019 Youth Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 17-20

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:53 pm

Look I just flat out disagree with you. You are wrong. Kids are the future of the sport. Period. It is not a waste it is not a 30 year play. It is real and frankly it will be the only thing that keeps your $200 wingmaster from getting turned into a sculpture.

I take plenty of newbies my age out to the range and hunting as well but that is not going to build the future near to the level that getting kids in it will.
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