Seriously is .223 a good Predator Hunting caliber?

[yukonjasper]

I know its an old debate, but I have been reading so much information/mis-information about .223 that I don't know what to think anymore. I have been leaning towards more powerful rounds but don't know if I should be torturing myself. I'm looking for a flat shooting, hard enough hitting round with common, realtively cheap and available ammo. I abandoned my AR search because I got all wrapped up in heavier calibers (.243,.270) that are harder to find in a basic, don't break the bank AR. I also have convinced myself that unless I can get an AR with an 18" - 19" -20" bull or fluted barrel that it won't do what I want it to do - Kill Coyotes etc. at distances of 200-300 yards. I've read articles that say that unless you make an investment in specialty parts for your AR, you won't get the accuracy out of that platform and at those distances your asking alot since the round wasn't developed for that kind of range. Others say it works well. My intention is to spend a moderate amount on the right set up in the caliber that best fits the use. I am not a reloader, so I can't develop my own hot loads, so whatever is commercially available will be my world. Glass is another story but I feel I need to find the right platform and then seek the right glass to complement it.

Should I be looking for a bolt rifle? Again, .223 or some other caliber - 22-250?

Sorry, I know its a wide open question and it is fraught with opportunities to do the Ford vs Chevy debate, but I'm getting tired of researching and would prefer to know what some of you all think and use. What's your set up and what do you wish you had paid a little more to have etc.

[s4oak]

.300 Blackout?

[Ghost]

In my opinion .223 is more than enough for those ranges. My 24" AR is zeroed for 200 yards there's no reason it won't work on coyote. There's plenty of range left in that caliber. Mine will pick off pop cans all day at 300.

I wouldn't go with a bolt gun, the AR versatility provides too much of an advantage in both capacity (people do miss) ease of followup shots and ability to change caliber if needed/wanted down the road.

My advice would be get a good varmint type .223 AR, good optic and have fun.

As to what I have:
DPMS 24" bull barrel all factory with a 3-9 SWFA supersniper and it's a fantastic shooter using any cheap ammo (I don't shoot steel case in my AR's though). If I were to make any changes I'd probably throw in a better trigger that's it, but it's unneeded for coyotes just nice (I've got Geissele's on my other ar's). Spend your money on the optic it makes life easier. Mine was meant to be a coyote gun 7 years ago but I'm still yet to get time to try it out on one.

Edit: this guy got me hooked on it http://www.predatorquest.com/videos/

[crbutler]

While I have not done a lot of predator hunting with a .223, its mainly because what I have done is as a target of opportunity while hunting something else (so more with a .30-06 or a .375). My longest coyote with a .223 was a bit more than 400 yards, and he went down pretty fast using a 55 grain Ballistic Tip. I was using a 20" Colt HBAR with a 8.5-24X Leupold on it. I also routinely shoot out to 400 with a short barrelled (16") ultra light weight AR made for 3 gun shooting, and while its a few hundred FPS slower than a 20" gun, I would have no compunction against using it on a coyote or bobcat at that range. I have busted crows and pigeons with both at out to 500 (sitting on a bait or such) with no complaints.

I don't think that there really is that much given up with using a bolt gun, and all my dangerous predator hunting (bear, cats) has been with a bolt action rifle. If all you want is a predator rifle, get whatever you like, as the repeat shot thing is really not needed unless you are trying to walk them in on a running target, which is irresponsible anyhow. I think that for the same barrel length and profile that an AR is heavier than a comparable bolt gun, and quality wise, the AR will cost you more $$$ to get the same level of accuracy generally, but for shooting a coyote at 300 any reasonable rifle will be accurate enough (2 MOA at 300 is 6", more than adequate for coyote, and any reasonable AR or bolt gun will do this, most will do a lot better.)

Caliber wise, out to 300, there is no need to look for more than the .223. If you want to shoot prairie dogs at 600 or so, moving up to a .22-250 or a .223 WSSM may be worthwhile, but the WSSM will eat barrels much faster (and will also kill coyotes as far as you can hit them in the vitals.) I have AR type rifles in .223/5.56, 6.8 SPC, .300 BLK, .308 and a 6x45 wildcat. If you like playing with odd stuff, the more the merrier, but if I was hunting deer or pigs, I would use the .308 or the 6.8. For varmints, the .223.

The 6x45 and the .300 BLK (and to some extent the 6.8) are more or less specialty items. The BLK (and the whisper which is essentially what it is a copy of) are essentially designed for suppressor use/subsonics. The 6.8 and the 6x45 were an attempt to get a heavier bullet out there. They all suffer from problems with a rainbow like trajectory at anything over 200, not that they can't work, but they just are not needed for predator shooting, and can make your job harder.

Now, I am actually a pretty "use enough gun" guy. I would not think of using a .223 for deer. I would not shoot coyotes at more than 150 with a .17 HMR rimfire or a .22 mag RF, but a .223 will be adequate at any distance you can hit a coyote at with it.

The big investment for you to be concerned about is the optic on top of the rifle. This is going to make or break you much more than the rifle action/chambering will. I like a bit more magnification for small critters- a 3-10 is about where I would draw the line, and if I am shooting at 300+ I would want something with 15-20X top end as a minimum. I am partial to Swarovski scopes, but that is a lot of money for a marginal improvement over a Leupold VX III or a decent Zeiss. If you are going out to 300 max, you really don't need all the fancy reticles for the scope, a decent #4 or a duplex crosshair is fine. Expect to pay about what the gun costs for a decent scope. (ie $500-700 or so)

However, if this is not something you intend to do a lot of, whatever you hunt with will work I know more than a few guys who get a fair number of coyotes using their 12 Ga shotguns with the hevishot dead coyote ammo and can roll them up out to about 100 yards with them (that stuff is basically T shot made of tungsten at a bit denser than lead densities.)

If you were talking about out to 600-800 yards, my answers would be a bit different. There getting a hyper accurate rifle will be needed (1/2 MOA or so.)

[dtapper2]

I solely use .223 for all varmint hunting. I tend to prefer bolt guns, but I do use an AR sometimes. I've got an M77 and 700, both in .223 and they outshoot my AR's all day long.

Good glass is key, which sounds like beating a dead horse. Maybe that's what this thread is about

[Ghost]

I don't think that there really is that much given up with using a bolt gun, and all my dangerous predator hunting (bear, cats) has been with a bolt action rifle. If all you want is a predator rifle, get whatever you like, as the repeat shot thing is really not needed unless you are trying to walk them in on a running target, which is irresponsible anyhow.

When you get the chance at multiple coyotes the AR comes in handy, but there are guys who can get 5 in one stand with a bolt gun. Not to mention if you do wound an animal you can shoot again without losing sight picture or even moving. Over on predator masters there are pages and pages of bolt vs AR debate, seemingly leads towards the AR but the reality is whatever you can shoot accurately will work.

Caliber wise, out to 300, there is no need to look for more than the .223. If you want to shoot prairie dogs at 600 or so, moving up to a .22-250 or a .223 WSSM may be worthwhile, but the WSSM will eat barrels much faster (and will also kill coyotes as far as you can hit them in the vitals.) I have AR type rifles in .223/5.56, 6.8 SPC, .300 BLK, .308 and a 6x45 wildcat. If you like playing with odd stuff, the more the merrier, but if I was hunting deer or pigs, I would use the .308 or the 6.8. For varmints, the .223.

The 6x45 and the .300 BLK (and to some extent the 6.8) are more or less specialty items. The BLK (and the whisper which is essentially what it is a copy of) are essentially designed for suppressor use/subsonics. The 6.8 and the 6x45 were an attempt to get a heavier bullet out there. They all suffer from problems with a rainbow like trajectory at anything over 200, not that they can't work, but they just are not needed for predator shooting, and can make your job harder.

If long range and ability to take anything up to Elk (up to ~400 yards Mark Larue) then the Grendel is the sweet spot in the AR15 platform. Fast 95gr bullets up to 130gr with high BC's and costs less per round than most comparable alternatives for quality Hornady cartridges. There is a guy who can consistently hit steel at 1200 with a 16" Grendel. But I agree what OP wants .223 is more than enough.

The big investment for you to be concerned about is the optic on top of the rifle. This is going to make or break you much more than the rifle action/chambering will. I like a bit more magnification for small critters- a 3-10 is about where I would draw the line, and if I am shooting at 300+ I would want something with 15-20X top end as a minimum.

I'm in agreement with this but generally this is considered over-scoping. Many would say a 1-4 can get you out past 600, my eyes aren't that good. My deer gun this year will be a Grendel with a Vortex 4.5-27.

However, if this is not something you intend to do a lot of, whatever you hunt with will work I know more than a few guys who get a fair number of coyotes using their 12 Ga shotguns with the hevishot dead coyote ammo and can roll them up out to about 100 yards with them (that stuff is basically T shot made of tungsten at a bit denser than lead densities.)

I've shot all my coyotes with a 12ga slug but then again I was always deer hunting at the time.

[yukonjasper]

Thanks for the feedback. This is exactly what I was looking for.

I was researching the 300BLK and although it sounds interesting, I don't want a caliber that is difficult to find and may be expensive. Afterall, if I can get what I want from .223, I'm happy. The ammo seems plentiful and realtively inexpensive. Now to get to the business of finding the right gun..................

[cobb]

You watch some of the shows that go after coyotes and quite few shoot .223 and take Yotes at a couple hundred yards or so. A local CO years ago used an AR in .223 to call coyotes at night, had a special flash suppresser built to hide the flash from him. He called on full moon nights with snow on the ground and if a pair came in, he dropped one, the flash suppressor allowed him to keep his night vision and could follow up with as many running shots he needed to score the second.

[yukonjasper]

What got my juices flowing on this again was spending some time at the hunting shack last weekend around the fire Saturday night and hearing the howling all around us - pretty close on the other side of our grove behind the house. We are North of Morris and I could get a couple of good set ups going. I already have a call and blinds etc. so its just getting the right tool for the job. I've got an old SKS that I don't believe is accurate enough for the task and its open sights right now - seems odd to mount even a cheap scope that would probably still be twice the value of the gun, a nicely scoped .22 that is probably underpowered, and a 30-06 that I use for deer hunting that would be overkill. I don't have confidence enough to believe I can get a coyote within 100yds, which is why I think a longer shot is more likely, thus needing a bit more reach out there power.

[aht_six]

I prefer a .22-250 bolt action for coyotes, ranges are often long, the .22-250 shoots flatter and is less affected by cross winds than the .223. However, the .223 in a rifle with reasonable accuracy is very capable of harvesting coyotes in most situations. If you plan on saving the pelts, the .223 might even be a better choice. A .22-250 with a varmint bullet can do some major pelt damage.

[aht_six]

...Now, I am actually a pretty "use enough gun" guy. I would not think of using a .223 for deer. I would not shoot coyotes at more than 150 with a .17 HMR rimfire or a .22 mag RF, but a .223 will be adequate at any distance you can hit a coyote at with it...

Being a former .17 HMR owner, I think it might be the most over-hyped and over-rated cartridge ever. I wouldn't use it on a coyote at any range. The terminal performance of the .22 RF Mag is far superior to that of the .17 HMR.

[yuppiejr]

I think in this case the indian > arrow, if you're capable of making the shot pretty much any SP or ballistic tip commercial ammo will put down a coyote no problem in a .223/5.56 chambered AR. A Ruger American Rifle should cost $300 or less and shoot MOA or damn close to it all day if you don't want to drop the coin on a semi-accurized AR.

http://www.laxammo.com/ammunition/.223- ... hva/27-103

[PHATSPEED7x]

Bullet technology has come leaps, and bounds over the last couple of years making the .223 Remington a serious competitor in the varmint caliber. It's just a matter of matching the right load with the kind of varmint, or game. As for the platform you launch the round from is always up for debate. For a predator hunt with longer distances I would choose my Mossberg MVP rifle with the 18" fluted barrel, and Vortex Crossfire II 4-12-44 scope.

[Slayer_MN1]

You'll be surprised at how close you'll get the coyote to come. I've been hunting coyotes for about ten years here in MN, and have also spent some time in WY and ND. MN coyotes are a lot tougher, they don't like to show themselves and tend to stay in the thick cover. It's not like the predator hunting shows you see out west where you can see the coyote held up at 500yds.

I've had much success with a 16" AR in 223, but I also have a lot of luck with a 12ga and T shot. A lot of the coyotes you see will pop out right in your lap, and you'll have a lot of them right in your lap that you never even see.

This one was a few hundred yards away with a 50gr Z-max behind the shoulder, he fell where he stood and stayed there.

[Slayer_MN1]

Also, check out Predatormasters forum. There is a wealth of knowledge there, and a good number of Minnesota guys on there.