September 10th - antlerless lottery

[FJ540]

Our carrying capacity is well above what's being managed for. Our herd is well below what it's supposedly been managed for by the DNR, but they use shoddy counting practices and un-scientific methods combined with "every hunter can take a deer" licensing.

Using deer/vehicle collisions to determine population of a species is insane. You have two random variables in play - the critter actually in the road, and a vehicle with a driver unable to avoid hitting it in the same spot at the same time. Was that because they were texting, half in the bag drunk, or the deer actually ran in front of them? Maybe in some areas they weren't even in the road and JoeBob managed to swerve wide enough to whack 'em?

When everyone wants a wall hanger, and no one will pass a fork, button, or breeding momma, you have a problem. That's all I'm saying.

If we had 50 does on my property, I'd invite all of you over to shoot them. We had 3, we're down to 1. When the last one is gone, we might not have any more left in the area to take up residence and breed again next year. That concerns me.

[Ghost]

Our carrying capacity is well above what's being managed for. Our herd is well below what it's supposedly been managed for by the DNR, but they use shoddy counting practices and un-scientific methods combined with "every hunter can take a deer" licensing.

Are you hunting on private property? Have you added food plots and habitat to hold deer?

[photogpat]

Our carrying capacity is well above what's being managed for. Our herd is well below what it's supposedly been managed for by the DNR, but they use shoddy counting practices and un-scientific methods combined with "every hunter can take a deer" licensing.

Are you hunting on private property? Have you added food plots and habitat to hold deer?

He's surrounded by meat hunters.

[FJ540]

I'm surrounded by brown is down, shoot anything that moves hunters.

I have 84 acres of prime habitat, so many acorns they rot before the squirrels can hide them all - 3# squirrels are the norm, and I have 4 acres of swamp for buck bedding.

Our herd is down. We used to have 20+ deer in the neighbor's alfalfa at dusk. We're down to 6. 3 does, 3 fawns, no bucks. I used to have 3 does raising 6-7 fawns on my property alone, now I have 1 doe with 2 fawns. This isn't just based on camera surveys, it's based on the number of tracks on the property. There used to be "zippers" of deer tracks on all my trails, we have scattered sightings now.

I have forest clearings for browse that used to be kept mowed. They're overgrown now to where I need to go back in and clear them again.

All private around me. My neighbors to the East trespass on my neighbors to the North and shoot anything that might have been spared on my land. I've had two wounded deer run back into my property from that parcel, and one of them was followed by the DNR to retrieve it despite them not having permission to be there. Lovely system we have, eh?

[FJ540]

We had some decent bone too...

[cobb]

Tomorrow is the last day to buy your license get into the lottery for an antlerless tag.

[Ghost]

Tomorrow is the last day to buy your license get into the lottery for an antlerless tag.

Let the does go!!!!!!

[crbutler]

Is using car/deer statistics the best way?

I think so, as you have removed observer bias from the system, and I suspect every substantial deer collision is reported.

How else are you going to do it?

It's based on human deer interactions that are usually attempted to be avoided by both parties. In general, the less systemic bias, the better the test. Until one can observe and count every deer by satellite, there really is no better test.

Yes, a county that has higher human population will have more incidents with all else being equal, but that is hardly your comment here.

Look, you have an issue, but is it localized to your neighborhood? In other words is your land representative of the whole zone?

The state has taken the good little populist view that in any given year most hunters get their deer, and to hang with long term trends; In MN, I don't see that changing anytime soon. From what you describe, trying to get your neighbors to cooperate with you isn't going to work either.

I feel for you, but while I have better control than it sounds like you do, I found out the hard way that I have no control on what happens on my property.

By the way, read the trespass law... The DNR can go in with them and help retrieve a downed animal without your permission, you can only stop them from going in themselves...and that is out if they have a dog. (The law allows folks to trespass regardless if they are retrieving a dog.)

[FJ540]

They were poaching on a neighbors property! Told explicitly not to be there by the owner. DNR came to retrieve their deer. Shot across the stomach, guts hanging out, and it ran about 200yds before dying in my land. Me and Misha hauled it out while the DNR was en-route (unknown to us) and I was then warned (written warning) for transporting an untagged deer on my atv when I was going to deliver it to them because neither of us were interested in tagging a 45# gut shot animal.

I'll spare you the photo. I still have it.

Deer-vehicle collisions are random events. Sure, the probability goes up with a higher population of either people or deer, but they're a piss poor metric for determining population density of deer.


You seem to ignore the part of what I say that you don't like to acknowledge. I'm only one voice out of many who are reporting lower than historical deer sightings. You then say hunter satisfaction is irrelevant so you don't have to acknowledge that others are confirming my position. Deer-vehicle collisions are also down. I bet you attribute that to people having safer cars now since it uses your favorite metric to substantiate my case.

I'm done here. Shoot everything that moves. I don't care. You just won't be doing it on my property and that's the only thing I have control over.

I'm not sure I'm even buying a tag this year. No effing point.

[Holland&Holland]

Wow. Touchy subject. I will stick to shooting famous lions as that appears to be less controversial.

Seriously though, what is the current QDM? It seems to change every year. First it was shoot does. Then it was don't shoot does but shoot the dumb bucks that will not advance good genes. Then it was only shoot mature bucks with 4 points at least on one side. Now are we at don't shoot any? Or back to does or what? Between the tv shows and the dnr and the mag experts I am truly confused. Personally I take what I need for the freezer. Try to avoid taking does but will take a doe or 2 if we have to.

[FJ540]

If you have too many does for your carrying capacity (the amount of deer your food/shelter can sustain), and or not enough bucks to service them all (low breeding success), then whack the does to get the population balance in check.

If you have too few mature bucks, then don't shoot the spikes and buttons. "Let them grow"

If you have old bucks with poor genes and you don't want them breeding your does, then shoot them so they're not passing on their traits. Cull the herd.

If you spend 2 weeks in a tree in a prime spot and see the same three deer. Then drive the roads in the area at dusk where they've congregated and there's a fraction of the population you once saw; maybe you shouldn't shoot any for a couple years.

Sightings are only part of my objections. We don't have the rubs or scrapes we used to. I used to see bucks. Never got good shot opportunities on them in bow season (underbrush is too dense) and then the pressure from the orange army drove them nocturnal in rifle season (still had them on cameras), but I saw them on camera and in person.

The DNR's posted success rate is closer to 50%. If we eliminated "party" hunting, I bet that would drop to 25% or maybe even less. I'd be in favor of getting rid of shooting anyone else's animal entirely. It's a freezer filling policy, and while I used to engage in it (when we were a "managed" zone), the herd doesn't have the numbers to sustain such a liberal harvest.

I don't think deer are going extinct. That's not the argument here. When you get down to 4-5 per square mile, it's not a healthy population when the carrying capacity is over 20. When you have 38 hunters in 800 acres and only 5 deer per square, that means even at 50% success, there's no survivors after rifle season. Last year I think our early blizzard and butt-cold snap saved our deer from being nearly wiped out. We'll have migrant deer come back and fill the void, but that takes time. I'd much rather end rifle season with 10dpsm than starting it with 5.


I don't watch "hunting" tv or read any hunting magazines. Those guys will say anything to sell you something.

[goalie]

Acting like the whole state has the same deer density is funny.

Again, I will likely trip over a few while going to my stand opening morning. That doesn't mean some places where idiots shoot anything that moves don't have issues, but don't act like me not shooting the deer you don't want me to where I hunt has any impact at all on your slob-hunter neighbors going "brown and down" on anything that moves.

[JJ]

Acting like the whole state has the same deer density is funny.

Again, I will likely trip over a few while going to my stand opening morning. That doesn't mean some places where idiots shoot anything that moves don't have issues, but don't act like me not shooting the deer you don't want me to where I hunt has any impact at all on your slob-hunter neighbors going "brown and down" on anything that moves.

^this

We are in SW MN and our numbers are stable. We saw a slight decline in firearms harvest last year, but it was more than offset by increased muzzleloader harvest (statistical wash). This year, we are in one of the three "Youth Antlerless" only harvest areas.

One of our two properties is in the largest habitat block in our permit area (a combination of public and private lands). On that property, we are tripping over deer seeing 50+ deer a day and have about 10:1 doe/buck ratio. Ten miles west, on our other property (an island of CRP) we had a much more balanced 4:1 ratio, but we are seeing only about 5-10 sightings a day. I would not expect the DNR to manage the entire permit area based on either property individually.

We will continue to practice our QDM based management strategy, working with adjacent landowners. Some buy in, some don't. When they complain of not seeing big bucks 'like the old days" we will continue to discuss sound management practices, but I am under no illusion to believe the DNR can manage every single area to its maximum potential.

[photogpat]

JJ hit it right - you can't expect to see the same numbers everywhere in the state. Just not possible.

If I was interested in getting a deer every time out - I'd hunt closer to the Cities.

[Ramoel]

We have our own private land. For several years it was "Intensive" allowing 5 deer even though there didn't seem to be that many deer. Two years ago it changed to "Hunters choice", last year "Bucks only" and the same this year. We are not over run with meat hunters or trespassers.

Last season I saw the least deer I've ever seen and no bucks. Same for all our neighbors. I was there a few weeks ago for 4 days, nobody saw a single deer until we were leaving and saw a doe with two fawns alongside the road. Our mowed trails have very few tracks. The deer are gone, huge winter kill two years ago and perhaps bad management to blame.

We are located near Cotton, MN. It has been a prime area for deer for many years but not now. Very little public land and the same hunters. We didn't kill them all.