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i just wanted to know if .223 is legal in the south shotgun only zone. And is the ar pistol with the brace legal? Thanks.

yes and yes, just don't get caught shouldering the brace. Not sure if I would personally use 223 but legally yes you can.

Per DNR regulations book:http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/rlp/regulations/hunting/2015/full_regs.pdf#page=66&view=fit

Rifle/shotgun boundary In the shotgun zone (see map on the back of the large, deer zone map, available separately), deer hunters may use only legal shotguns loaded with single-slug shotgun shells, legal muzzleloading long guns, or legal handguns.

LEGAL FIREARMS (INCLUDES HANDGUNS) FOR BIG GAME
• It is at least .220 caliber and has centerfire ignition; • It is loaded only with single projectile ammunition;
• The projectile used has a soft point or is an expanding bullet type;*
• The muzzleloader (long gun or handgun) used cannot be loaded at the breech (muzzleloading revolvers are not legal for taking big game);
• The smooth-bore muzzleloader used is at least .45 caliber and
• The rifled muzzleloader used is at least .40 caliber; • Muzzleloaders with scopes are legal during the regular firearms deer seasons, but are not allowed during the muzzleloader season except by hunters age 60 and over or by special permit for hunters with a medically certified visual impairment. Applications are available from the DNR Information Center, see page 122.


Per Minnesota Statute:
624.712 DEFINITIONS
Subd. 2.Pistol. "Pistol" includes a weapon designed to be fired by the use of a single hand and with an overall length less than 26 inches, or having a barrel or barrels of a length less than 18 inches in the case of a shotgun or having a barrel of a length less than 16 inches in the case of a rifle (1) from which may be fired or ejected one or more solid projectiles by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances; or (2) for which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, air or other gas, or vapor.
"Pistol" does not include a device firing or ejecting a shot measuring .18 of an inch, or less, in diameter and commonly known as a "BB gun," a scuba gun, a stud gun or nail gun used in the construction industry or children's pop guns or toys.

So yes, 223 is a legal caliber, and an AR15 pistol assembled in accordance within MN law, and ATF definitions is a legal pistol, and there are no restrictions placed on legal pistols (of legal calibers).

On the SIG brace; yes you can use the SIG brace, but you cannot use the brace for shouldering per the ATF: https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

ATF hereby confirms that if used as designed—to assist shooters in stabilizing a handgun while
shooting with a single hand—the device is not considered a shoulder stock and therefore may be
attached to a handgun without making a NFA firearm. However, ATF has received numerous
inquiries regarding alternate uses for this device, including use as a shoulder stock. Because the
NFA defines both rifle and shotgun to include any “weapon designed or redesigned, made or
remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder,” any person who redesigns a stabilizing
brace for use as a shoulder stock makes a NFA firearm when attached to a pistol with a rifled
barrel under 16 inches in length or a handgun with a smooth bore under 18 inches in length.

As for the 223. I have no issue with 223 use out of a rifle, but I have serious misgivings about use out of a pistol. I had a 10" 223 pistol build at one point. When shootign over a chronograph I saw significant velovity loss in the 10" barrel, and my extreme spreads were up to about 500fps. The velocity was low enough that I would not feel comfortable with the combo, because of the high likelyhood of incomplete expansion of bullet possibly causing me to cripple and not kill my target. for me, it is an ethical no go out of a 223 pistol. I feel differently about 223 out of a rifle.

YMMV.

I've gotten into discussions about the .223 and deer before with people. I used to be adamantly opposed, but, after seeing the results, I am a believer. I have killed some big deer with a .223, and, more importantly, my hunting buddies daughter has. I have also stated that I wouldn't use it much further than a few hundred yards, and preferably under 150 or so.

That is because with the .223, monolithic bullets + speed is what kills. Ideally hitting shoulder bone for a DRT scenario. My 10" AR pistol didn't shoot fast enough over the chrony for me to use it on deer unless I was within about 25 yards.

YMMV, but there is a significant difference in performance when you drop from 16 or 18 inches to pistol length. If you have not shot over a chrony, and don't know what velocity you are getting, you really should before using it on a deer.

I have not ever had to shoot a deer twice, and I don't ever want to, so I won't use a short-barreled .223 on deer. 300BO, on the other hand...... (especially supersonic)

I could have just read JJ's post before posting mine. DOH!

Of course, JJ is absolutely right on the legalities of the SIG brace, but what a ridiculous rule. The whole NFA is pretty silly, in my opinion.

Thanks guys, that helps a lot. I've read the DNR regulations over and over, but some of my buddies (probably don't know what they are talking about) keep saying you can't use .223. And thanks for clearing up the brace question. I couldn't find any regulations on that.

DKMY04 wrote:Thanks guys, that helps a lot. I've read the DNR regulations over and over, but some of my buddies (probably don't know what they are talking about) keep saying you can't use .223. And thanks for clearing up the brace question. I couldn't find any regulations on that.

Until the DNR changed the regs a few years ago - .223 was not a legal cartridge. Probably what your buddies were still thinking.

Of course .25ACP is also a legal cartridge now too - doesn't make it a good idea though...

photogpat wrote:

DKMY04 wrote:Thanks guys, that helps a lot. I've read the DNR regulations over and over, but some of my buddies (probably don't know what they are talking about) keep saying you can't use .223. And thanks for clearing up the brace question. I couldn't find any regulations on that.

Until the DNR changed the regs a few years ago - .223 was not a legal cartridge. Probably what your buddies were still thinking.

Of course .25ACP is also a legal cartridge now too - doesn't make it a good idea though...

The .25 ACP really is only useful at about 200 yards out and beyond I find.

As already said both AR pistols and .223 are completely legal. I would use .223 but not from a pistol. I will be using a .300blk AR pistol.

Holland&Holland wrote: The .25 ACP really is only useful at about 200 yards out and beyond I find.

Don't sell the mighty .25 short. With modern bullets it is fully capable of dropping any animal in North America right in its tracks. Of course, this requires expert marksmanship like that displayed by my buddy's uncle's boss who shot three trophy bucks with his Beretta last year.

MJY65 wrote:

Holland&Holland wrote: The .25 ACP really is only useful at about 200 yards out and beyond I find.

Don't sell the mighty .25 short. With modern bullets it is fully capable of dropping any animal in North America right in its tracks. Of course, this requires expert marksmanship like that displayed by my buddy's uncle's boss who shot three trophy bucks with his Beretta last year.

I would have to dispute that, I believe it was actually a .32 1903 Colt he was using.

Glad I found this thread. Has anyone successful taken a deer in MN with an ar15 pistol? Regardless of caliber?

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PHATSPEED7x wrote:Glad I found this thread. Has anyone successful taken a deer in MN with an ar15 pistol? Regardless of caliber?

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I know several folks on this forum successfully have used .300 blackout AR pistols in MN to take deer in the shotgun zone.

8.5" barrel, 300BLK, 125gr Speer TNT over 18.0gr of H110. Neck shot at about 90yds. DRT. My chrono of this load out of this gun is just about 2025fps at the muzzle.

This year's load is a 130gr Barnes TTX over 18.2gr of H110. I expect similar results, but needed something that wouldn't disintegrate into a shoulder blade since the kid is 300BLK hunting this year too. Chrono'd this load today at just over 2000fps at the muzzle of the 8.5"...2175 out of a 16"