Del-Tone Closed. ?????

[Hmac]

I think the evidence that that bullet came from that range is pretty convincing, but the real point is that the government says it did and they can make a better case than Del-Luth can defend. Time for Del-Luth to go to all parties hat-in-hand and beg forgiveness, and spend the money necessary to make the range safe. Foot-dragging and stonewalling about where that 9mm round came from isn't going to fly because nobody is going to believe it came from the neighbor even in the (unlikely) event it's true.

[ttousi]

While I don't know all that has transpired, I do know that Del-Tone has spent a ton of money and is attempting to comply with everything mandated by the county.

I toured the facility on Labor day and saw
....fresh 20 ft clean fill backstops
...fresh 8 ft high side berms
......baffling on several ranges
....new shooting tubes to prevent muzzle elevations
.....an NRA RSO class in progress training about 18 students

To say they are foot dragging and/or not spending money is not true. The above list, as I understand, was all done in the course of about 7-10 days

I have also studied the 8 page report done on the facility and it was IMO biased.

[Hmac]

It is "alleged" until proof has been provided. Nothing I have seen or heard about this particular instance proves to me that the bullet came from the range, nor has the range been proven to be at fault by any portion of the legal system. Had the woman been killed, we would still be using the term "allegedly" until such time as the accusation had been proven true. Its really a simple concept and the term was used correctly - no need to get your panties in a bundle.

It would be stupid to stand up publicly and try to make that lady prove she got shot by a careless round from DelTone. Public perception is what matters. Currently, the public perceives that DelTone is unsafe, neighbors are being shot by a bunch of crazy gun nuts, and that perception is the reality that their elected officials are reacting to. Since there is no dispute that DelTone's sloppy administration and paperwork is in violation of their CUP, and since there's no dispute that DelTone's construction and administration violates NRA specs, neither DelTone nor their proponents are in ANY position to take ANY kind of self-righteous attitude. Time to bend over and beg forgiveness.

[jgalt]

It is "alleged" until proof has been provided. Nothing I have seen or heard about this particular instance proves to me that the bullet came from the range, nor has the range been proven to be at fault by any portion of the legal system. Had the woman been killed, we would still be using the term "allegedly" until such time as the accusation had been proven true. Its really a simple concept and the term was used correctly - no need to get your panties in a bundle.

It would be stupid to stand up publicly and try to make that lady prove she got shot by a careless round from DelTone. Public perception is what matters. Currently, the public perceives that DelTone is unsafe, neighbors are being shot by a bunch of crazy gun nuts, and that perception is the reality that their elected officials are reacting to. Since there is no dispute that DelTone's sloppy administration and paperwork is in violation of their CUP, and since there's no dispute that DelTone's construction and administration violates NRA specs, neither DelTone nor their proponents are in ANY position to take ANY kind of self-righteous attitude. Time to bend over and beg forgiveness.

None of which changes the fact that Effendude's indignation at someone here daring to use the term "allegedly" to describe something that has not in fact been proven - i.e. is quite literally only alleged - and his ridiculous definition regarding what constitutes a club "operating unsafely", are just plain silly...

[Hmac]

Personally, I think Deltone-Luth had gotten pretty sloppy on many of their range procedures, and now they've reaped what they've sewn. I think she was hit by an errant round from the range, but I acknowledge that moving it from "alleged" to "proven" hasn't been done yet. Anyway, the facts don't matter toward the outcome...the perception does.

I do agree about Effendude's definition. While safety measures for daily range operation might have been lax, their events (three-gun, Omega, etc) are all pretty mainstream and in my experience down there, well-run with all the appropriate safety measures in place.

[Rip Van Winkle]

We in the shooting community need to take range safety more seriously. If we want to keep places to shoot open we need to take incidents like this seriously. While we can't prove the bullet that struck the woman came from the Del-Ton-Luth club it's foolish to out of hand discount that it did.

I've never been to Del-Luth range, I don't know it's layout and I don't know the layout of the surrounding neighbors in relation to the lines of fire. What I do know, having gone through a similar incident at a club I'm a member of is if a bullet can leave the range, Mr Murphy will come visit you sooner or later.

[1911fan]

Deltone has been there much longer than the housing around it. Counter sue the city/county for issuing building permits which restricted the use and enjoyment of th members property. Screw kowtowing. Go on the offensive and start ripping people new ones. Only an incompetent booob of a civil employee would issue building permits in the safe zone of a rifle range.

[Hmac]

Deltone has been there much longer than the housing around it. Counter sue the city/county for issuing building permits which restricted the use and enjoyment of th members property. Screw kowtowing. Go on the offensive and start ripping people new ones. Only an incompetent booob of a civil employee would issue building permits in the safe zone of a rifle range.

Yeh, that's working great for ATV trails and airports.

[jgalt]

While we can't prove the bullet that struck the woman came from the Del-Ton-Luth club it's foolish to out of hand discount that it did.

I haven't seen anyone here - or anyone else, for that matter - say that it could not have come from the range. However, that is an awful long way from having any actionable proof that it did. Without such proof, there is no justification for assuming it did, or for taking any punitive action against the club.

I understand entirely that many people are irrational, and that local politicians are eager to cater to the most irrational of them when there is no consequence to themselves for doing so. However, any legal action taken against this club, or any other, prior to proof being established, goes against every principle of the "rule of law" - which I was under the impression most of us here, and some decent percentage of the general public, thought was a good thing...

Only an incompetent booob of a civil employee...

C'mon now, there was no need to repeat yourself there...

[Rip Van Winkle]

I would say the only "actionable proof" one would need is the fact that a woman, who is the neighbor of a gun range, was struck in the face by a stray bullet. While we will never know with 100% certainty where the bullet came from the smart money says it came from the shooting range.

IMO, most of the shooting ranges in this area are not as safe as we would like to think. Most were built 40+ years ago in areas where there was little or no development. Encroaching urbanization, inadequate impact berms and the lack of proper buffer zones threaten all these ranges.

[Hmac]

I haven't seen anyone here - or anyone else, for that matter - say that it could not have come from the range. However, that is an awful long way from having any actionable proof that it did. Without such proof, there is no justification for assuming it did, or for taking any punitive action against the club.

I think there is plenty of justification for making that assumption, not the least of which is the twenty-odd other bullet holes in nearby structures there downrange from a shooting range. Let's not kid ourselves, and PLEASE let's not try to convince a public and a city council that have already assumed the obvious.

Anyway, they aren't taking punitive action against the club for lax safety that got a woman shot...their action is based on non-compliance with their CUP. That's their story and apparently they're sticking to it.

[1911fan]

I would say the only "actionable proof" one would need is the fact that a woman, who is the neighbor of a gun range, was struck in the face by a stray bullet. While we will never know with 100% certainty where the bullet came from the smart money says it came from the shooting range.

IMO, most of the shooting ranges in this area are not as safe as we would like to think. Most were built 40+ years ago in areas where there was little or no development. Encroaching urbanization, inadequate impact berms and the lack of proper buffer zones threaten all these ranges.

Here again I return to who allowed people to build in the buffer zones? Any one who allows a home or development in the buffer zone of an existing shooting range is just asking for trouble. The people who buy there, are just as lame brained.

To the response about airports, It has worked. and it continues to work, if you had an existing airport before the houses or residents, in many places.

[Rip Van Winkle]

Here again I return to who allowed people to build in the buffer zones? Any one who allows a home or development in the buffer zone of an existing shooting range is just asking for trouble. The people who buy there, are just as lame brained.

It doesn't matter who allowed it to happen or how lame brained the people are, the fact is they're there now. This isn't a new problem and we can't just wish it away. As time goes on, with more people moving into rural areas, it's only going to get worse, affecting more clubs

[Hmac]

To the response about airports, It has worked. and it continues to work, if you had an existing airport before the houses or residents, in many places.

Well, MSP vs Twin Cities has been pretty tame compared to most other large airports, but your assertion that it "worked" doesn't mention the millions of dollars MAC has spent on legal fees, home insulation, property buy-backs, runway re-routing, and flight path manipulations. That airport has been there a long time...longer than many of the surrounding houses. Yet MAC has had to make huge concessions to local government and private entities. DelTone and supporters shouldn't be surprised that they'll have to do the same. The difference of course is that MSP serves a vital function.

[Keith]

WTF? "

I'm a new guy here, but this attitude will get every range in the country shut down.

Any of you posers and psuedo SWAT/Commando guys who can justify unsafe behavior because it is fun to shoot fast and run around and pretend to be an expert need to find a gravel pit up north somewhere.

Calling fellow shooters derogatory names doesn't exactly make for a great attitude, either.