The current climate of the shooting sports in MN

[Ron Burgundy]

I bought a gun threeyears ago and found the twin cities idpa after seeing some action shooting on shooting USA. I've gotten help from almost every shooter out there and I love all the games. I try to attend everything my pocket book allows. I think MN could do with a centralized website that encompassed all the MN comp shooting rld from sass to f class ti sa.

You started shooting 3 years ago? FML that's about the same I started shooting pistols (first year of USPSA though).

For those of you who don't know, PRS' 34 is an extension of his right hand.

I agree, a centralized and routinely updated page would be great.

As far as trying other clubs, I've tried three. I find that MG&F is my favorite as the bays allow for a little more challenging courses but more often than not, I end up at OGC. I can only shoot once a week and given the choice, it is fun to shoot with the same squad each week. I think the social element gets over looked.


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[andrewP]

I wish I could shoot more competitions than I do. Currently, I get to as many USPSA matches as I can at OGC, and have a ton of fun doing so. I've yet to meet anyone there who was anything less than cordial, and the vast majority are truly friendly and welcoming - it's a great environment.

The rest of the clubs that host matches just seem like such a long drive away that it's hard for me to justify with gas prices being what they are. It costs enough with ammo and entry fees, even reloading and helping with setup/teardown to save money on both. If I was a more serious level competitor and/or had more disposable income, it might be different.

Now if BESA would start running USPSA or IDPA matches, I'd be very interested to get involved with those, especially if they were offered on weekends in the spring and/or fall such that the season didn't conflict with OGC. (I live roughly halfway between the two ranges, and I'm always disappointed that sunset times limit OGC's season due to the afternoon/evening time slot.)

[Rip Van Winkle]

Recruiting new shooters is a subject near and dear to me as I've spent a lot of time trying to figure it out.

I’ve never been to an Action Pistol or 3 Gun match, my passion is Highpower Rifle. Funny thing is I’ve had all these same discussions and heard all the same excuses trying to recruit new shooters.

One of the realizations I've come to is there is only a tiny fraction of the shooting community, I would say somewhere between 1 to 10%, that have any interest in any type of organized competition. Of the folks you can convince to come out and give your discipline a try, only a tiny fraction will ever come back. I average 1 new shooter for every 10 to 12 participants I run through a new shooter clinic.

I divide shooters I recruit into 3 categories, Wannabe, Casual and Hardcore.

The Wannabe is by far and away the largest group. They will come out and give it a try but don’t enjoy the sport enough to come back. The Casual shooter is the bread and butter of your shooting program. Mr Casual enjoys the sport and the people he shoots with enough to become a regular but he will rarely if ever travel to another club to shoot. The Hardcore shooters are the smallest group but form the backbone of your program. Mr Hardcore develops a passion for the sport, regularly shows up and tries to make every match he can.

The biggest problem we have is too many matches competing for not enough shooters. I’m the Webmaster for the MRRA website and in the summer, between Highpower, Smallbore and Bullseye Pistol there is a match every weekend, sometimes multiple matches.

Remember, even Mr Hardcore can’t shoot every weekend, and with all the different games being shot, is it any wonder some programs are hurting?

If anyone has any ideas how to convince the 90% who won’t even try to come out and shoot, I’m all ears.

[farmerj]

If anyone has any ideas how to convince the 90% who won’t even try to come out and shoot, I’m all ears.

reduce costs.....

right behind....

take away the stigma that shooting is bad. There was a transition away from promoting shooting in schools to making it bad. Late 50's, early 60's. About the same time the family unit was being turned into something different from what my parents grew up with. Maybe it was the Gen X'ers.

Bring back what the babyboomer's did away with then.

[Rip Van Winkle]

If anyone has any ideas how to convince the 90% who won’t even try to come out and shoot, I’m all ears.

reduce costs.....

right behind....

take away the stigma that shooting is bad. There was a transition away from promoting shooting in schools to making it bad. Late 50's, early 60's. About the same time the family unit was being turned into something different from what my parents grew up with. Maybe it was the Gen X'ers.

Bring back what the babyboomer's did away with then.

I'm not sure what stigma your talking about. I'm not talking about non-gun owners or shooters. The 90% I'm referencing are gun owners who have no problem backing their car up to the firing line, taking out a trunk load of firearms and blasting away with them. Most I've seen and met would never dream of shooting at an organized event.

[benny]

As a member at Beaverbrook sportsmen club the one issue I know of is the majority of the members don't want the ranges tied up on weekends with shooting sports or gamers.

They want to go there when ever they want and have the range open to shoot on.

The club is trying to expand right now but there ended up being a lot of issues that had to be worked out plus they have to show the members how it will benefit them if there is an expansion.

Advertisement has been an issue as well, to place an add in the two big papers is expensive and the smaller local papers don't seem to generate a lot of interest. They started to put tables at a few gun shows but most if not all the people just walked right by their table. I even saw them put guns for sale on the table but still no responses.

There needs to be more publications that are willing to let the clubs advertise at a reasonable price.

Benny

[jgalt]

I've thought about putting together a unified calendar for a while now but haven't spent any time on it because I knew there are other calendars already available - specifically the two westberg mentioned in this post...

Both seem to be updated regularly for the competitions they cover, but it looks like neither covers anywhere close to every competitive opportunity out there.

If someone - be it myself or somebody else - were to build an event calendar with the intention of covering every single competitive opportunity available to MN shooters, what features / functionality would be required to ensure people used it on a regular basis?

As a starting point, here's the info I'd find useful as a casual shooter:

* Date, Start time, Location & entry fee to compete (of course)
* Type of competition (USPSA, IDPA, High Power, F-Class, etc...)
* Expected length of competition & approximate round count
* Whether or not the person posting the info is the organizer of the event
* Experience level required (beginner, intermediate, advanced, any, etc...)
* Link to site with general info on the particular rules for the competition (if available)
* Link to site with specific info on the particular competition listed (if available)
* Filters available to drill down to just the types of competition the viewer is interested in

What else...?

I'd probably be willing to work on it if I knew it would be
1 - complete (or close to it) &
2 - used regularly by a lot of people...

[crbutler]

I used to run the Faribault IPSC/USPSA shooting and some 3 gun matches at FRPC.

My observations, for what they are worth-

There are some folks who just don't want to be involved in competition; for some its a dislike of competing. For some, they don't like the organized aspect, For others, its a time thing. Pretty much, as many answers as people... I don't think we are going to solve this one.

I don't think that cost is all that big of a deal. FRPC had some of the lowest costs for a while, and yet the attendance was not that great. One of the old timers told me about their issues with smallbore position shooting and high power (when they had it at the old range) They would provide guns, ammo, and all the needed equipment along with help, yet they could not get new people involved.

One of the bigger issues I have seen is that it is pretty much a matter of convenience- Metro area folks tend not to want to drive too far- if the range is not on a major highway and/or is more than 30-45 minutes drive, people are not too likely to show up.

Arbitrary RO'ing and scoring is always an issue. I have rarely seen anyone get too upset about a safety rule being enforced, but some of the scoring or penalty rules (in all the games there are some-) invariably build resentment. SASS uses "spotters"- IDPA has issues with what is "Tactical" (and I despise that term...), USPSA has a rather byzantine rule book, and 3 gun has no real structured rules, so each MD has their own format (admittedly I was no different than anyone else...)

A final issue is, at least in the practical disciplines, the "old time" guys want challenging stages (read something that they can complete, but a substantial fraction of the shooters cannot, at least not with any semblance of competitiveness)- so you see moving texas stars with hard cover or no shoots, moving targets/disappearing targets that move fast enough that a "D" class shooter cannot get all their hits (yet set up so that it gives penalties for not getting the hits in...), etc. A simple straightforward stage is "too easy" or "allows people to shoot above their classification" yet the new guys (at least the few who would say anything to me about it) would say that it was not fun standing around shooting 50 rounds and having to stop because they ran out of ammo. In general, a club is in the dilemma of running matches that the established market wants (and getting the 20-40 folks to come) or shooting easy stages, which may or may not get new folks in, but will take years to build up (and likely will go to the more challenging clubs once they gain skill...)

In the end, I ended up getting pretty burned out due to unreasonable demands. I still enjoy shooting some competition, but some of the more bizarre stuff I see as pointless has driven me out of a lot of it. I really don't think the issue is "solvable" as most competitive shooters are type A folks, while most people are somewhat uncomfortable around those types, even if they respect them.

[bradgsxr]

Very well said crbutler, I agree with 98% of everything you said and obviously you have some experience to back up your reasoning. Let me give you my perspective as a new shooter to the competition realm, I just started shooting competitions this summer and I have been pleasantly surprised with the quality of people I have met and have thoroughly enjoyed all of the matches etc... that I have been able to attend. I will admit however that I am a competitive person to start off with and do compete in other sports etc... so I agree that everyone else does not necessarily enjoy the competition or have the drive to try to improve and work towards winning etc...that most " competitive shooters " have. I do feel however that there can be a situation where it can be made more fun for the casual shooters and still be challenging for the better shooters.

I think however that it does require effort on many fronts.

There has to be a willingness to improve the layouts, target selections, stage varieties etc... to keep it somewhat fresh and challenging. There also has to be an effort on behalf of the clubs and host ranges to make the events more friendly as far as having some type of food or refreshments, barbecues whatever and even small things like coming up with trophies or awards etc... to make the experience more enticing to newer shooters etc... . Let's be clear though , I am not suggesting that there are prize tables etc... for a local match as obviously the funds are not there to do that but even t-shirts, small prizes for different divisions or awards for best new shooter, best junior shooter, lady shooter, just something to make the people that don't take it as seriously look forward to going. I want to say though that I still enjoy going just for the competition and the people, pushing to improve my own abilities and results but if you want to draw more people you have to start thinking outside that box . I myself would be more than willing to donate more of my time to help start other matches or improve current ones.

I applaud the people who run the current events like MN 3 gun, Nordic match even the PIPS 3 gun was outstanding as far as the variety of targets, quality of the host range etc... I wonder how some of these people have the time to organize these events, compete in them and still have a full time job, family etc... but obviously they need help to continue to improve.

You are never going to be able to please everyone all of the time, someone will always find something to complain about. I also don't think cost is an issue with the current events but I would be more than willing to pay more to get more, more targets, better targets, more stages, more variety whatever, if it make the experience more enjoyable I am happy to pony up more dough. Just like going to a national event like Nordic shotgun match, it costs more but you get a lot more.
I also think a lot of these events could be promoted better as far as just getting the word out. I know the " real " shooters generally know about the matches that are worth knowing about but the more casual guys have to really do some digging to even find some of these events, that's where a better calendar etc.. could be a huge benefit.
Overall I have had a very positive experience with the local shooting sports and I haven't even scratched the surface of what is available to try but I have not had the negative experiences that have been talked about here.
That's not to say that it couldn't be better but until more people step up and offer to do what they can to help the situation, unfortunately it is left up to the few that are doing it now and I just hope that they too don't get burned out and decide to give it up as I can totally see how they would get to that point.
So to the people who are busting their butts to put these events on, I say Thanks and hopefully we can all help you make it even better -

[highwarden]

In order to better respond to questions posted in this thread, I put out a call to people I know about why they did not participate in matches or why they did not like certain matches. Several of the responses would be off topic so I will, if I get consistent responses, address those issues in new threads. On topic, the greatest responses were as follows:
1. "I didn't hear about it in time to get/load enough ammo."
2. "I already had something planned when I heard about it."
3. "It sounded like a members only club match." This was mostly about matches at OGC, personally I never read them that way.
4. "When I called the club for information on matches, the only time I got helpful information was asking about (shotgun/IDPA/USPSA) stuff. The guy on the phone
did not care about anything but his own stuff."
5. "When I called the club the guy on the phone told me to go to the website. I tried that but they had a lousy website with little information."
6. "I could not find the rules for the match. The match bulletin did not list where to find the rules or whose rules they were using."

When I asked a few questions to follow up, the most common response I got was "I don't want to put that much effort into something I am doing only for fun and entertainment. Let's just go out to somebody's farm and shoot for fun"

To respond to some of the comments about me or directed at me:
I do not "have an axe to grind". My posts were based on my opinions and either direct experiences or experience others related to me. They were intended to be constructive suggestions.
I do believe many matches require too much ammo, but that is another topic.
I started shooting organized competition in 1961 and have participated off and on since then. Every time I have returned to competition after a layoff, I have noticed changes, some good, some I did not care for.
As far as specific examples of problems, the only ones that seemed to repeat that I could confirm were in regard to the Glock matches at OGC over the past few years. I did not shoot this year and no one I talked to did either. The main problem was a few range officers who were working only because they needed to get their hours in, did not know the difference between GSSF rules and IDPA/USPSA rules, did not know the GSSF rules, and did not seem to care. In all fairness, this is a problem that has been noted at GLOCK matches around the country partly because Glock matches only happen once or twice a year.

[Snowgun]

In order to better respond to questions posted in this thread, I put out a call to people I know about why they did not participate in matches or why they did not like certain matches. Several of the responses would be off topic so I will, if I get consistent responses, address those issues in new threads. On topic, the greatest responses were as follows:
1. "I didn't hear about it in time to get/load enough ammo."
2. "I already had something planned when I heard about it."
3. "It sounded like a members only club match." This was mostly about matches at OGC, personally I never read them that way.
4. "When I called the club for information on matches, the only time I got helpful information was asking about (shotgun/IDPA/USPSA) stuff. The guy on the phone
did not care about anything but his own stuff."
5. "When I called the club the guy on the phone told me to go to the website. I tried that but they had a lousy website with little information."
6. "I could not find the rules for the match. The match bulletin did not list where to find the rules or whose rules they were using."

When I asked a few questions to follow up, the most common response I got was "I don't want to put that much effort into something I am doing only for fun and entertainment. Let's just go out to somebody's farm and shoot for fun"

To respond to some of the comments about me or directed at me:
I do not "have an axe to grind". My posts were based on my opinions and either direct experiences or experience others related to me. They were intended to be constructive suggestions.
I do believe many matches require too much ammo, but that is another topic.
I started shooting organized competition in 1961 and have participated off and on since then. Every time I have returned to competition after a layoff, I have noticed changes, some good, some I did not care for.
As far as specific examples of problems, the only ones that seemed to repeat that I could confirm were in regard to the Glock matches at OGC over the past few years. I did not shoot this year and no one I talked to did either. The main problem was a few range officers who were working only because they needed to get their hours in, did not know the difference between GSSF rules and IDPA/USPSA rules, did not know the GSSF rules, and did not seem to care. In all fairness, this is a problem that has been noted at GLOCK matches around the country partly because Glock matches only happen once or twice a year.

Thanks for clarifying Highwarden, I obviously confused some of your original posts as issues you personally had with competition shooting (and it seemed like a lot for one person )

Your 6 "responses" you listed above I believe are unfortunately dead on. Many aspiring new competitive shooters incorrectly assume that the range or club is running or even gives a crap about a match, and they definitely don't have any information to give. I know I had a difficult time finding information on how or where to shoot when I started a couple years ago, and I REALLY looked hard because I wanted to shoot competition.

Twin cities action pistol (IDPA) was the easiest to find for me initially because at that time they were shooting winter leagues at Bill's, and one of the employees there was kind enough to send me to their website. After meeting people there I learned about all the other opportunities, different matches, rules, etc.

A localized information source like the one jgalt suggested would be optimal. It would be easy to tag any information with a web address and it would be one place to get info on everything at the same time. Just doing the mngunsite calendar however I believe that this would take a decent amount of work to set up and keep current. The good side is that the ranges, descriptions of competitions, and rules don't change often, just the times and dates.

[farmerj]

keeping it current, making it widely known and then finding the information to put into it.

Someone would have a full time position right there doing that.

Little rich for anyone to take on as a volunteer considering the variety of sports to get listed.

[jgalt]

keeping it current, making it widely known and then finding the information to put into it.

Someone would have a full time position right there doing that.

Little rich for anyone to take on as a volunteer considering the variety of sports to get listed.

I've got some ideas on how to set up a structure that would allow the work to be spread around. I know it could be valuable for those who would use it, I just want to get some type of feel for how many would actually do so before I put any work into it...

[farmerj]

the back-office side of what you describe is the easy part.

I struggle with something similar to this for posting and listing my trucks in a map for my customers to know and track equipment.

Getting that data updated and keeping it current is another issue.

Your side is the easy thing. Rather static.

How do you handle the visibility and marketing. Making it KNOWN to people out there and where will it be hosted? That would be my biggest concern.

I see an entirely new web domain being created.

MN shooting sports.com or something like that. Metatags (or whatever they are called now) would be a file of its own I would think with all the options available and different disciplines.

(just thinking out loud and sharing those thoughts is all)

[Rip Van Winkle]

Years ago a guy joined NSRC with the promises of expanding membership and the shooting sports. He had started a company called Target Sport Marketing (IIRC) and all his ideas involved us handing him large sums of money. When he realized we weren't going to pry open our wallets for him he left and joined another club.

Don't know what ever became of him or his company.