Is this even possible??

[shooter115]

Fired....yes, but not since that church was built.

[yuppiejr]

Question for the group. Has anyone here ever done any research or seen a study on how far a ricochet 9mm bullet could potentially travel?

Here's the scoop, they built a new church about 420 yards away from the end of our range. Not directly down range but at about about a 45º angle and across a highway. Today I got word that it was reported to the Sheriffs department that they found a 9mm bullet in the church parking lot and it's speculation that it came from our range. From what I was told the bullet found appeared to be in pretty good condition with a dent on one side.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... llets.html

*If* this is indeed a bullet that left your range it's entirely plausible that it is only slightly deformed from hitting the concrete or asphalt when it landed if it was shot at a fairly high angle and tumbled back to earth. I expect if it impacted a popper at normal pistol range there would be more significant damage unless a combination of light loads and longer range shots were in play.

[jshuberg]

There's absolutely no way that bullet hit steel. There's no deformation or jacket separation at all, which would be expected of a 9mm. Jerry Miculek recently posted a video of him popping a balloon at 1000 yards. He didn't actually hit the balloon, he hit the steel it was hanging on a few inches away, and the balloon was popped by the bullet fragmentation. That bullet is way too intact to have hit a hard solid object. Even a parking lot 400 yards away would likely deform the bullet more than that. At 400 yards the bullet is still stabilized in the air, meaning it would be traveling nose first in a ballistic arc. The nose would be expected to have much more deformation on it if it hit a solid object. What's interesting is that one side looks to be more chewed up than the rest, but the nose still has it's original shape.

If it was shot at an extremely high angle, basically straight up it could become unstable, travel 400 yards, and fall on it's side. It would only be traveling at terminal velocity though, which is around 180 fps. If that were a 124gn 9mm bullet, it would have only 9 foot pounds of energy when it hit the pavement. While possible, it's pretty unlikely that this would be a recurring problem, since all the planets would have to align perfectly for it to reach max attitude and then fall back down to that exact same place. The danger from a falling bullet (as opposed to a bullet that follows a ballistic arc to the target) is pretty minimal.

I'm no ballistics expert, but I'd say it's most likely that this bullet hit dirt or some other soft target somewhere, and then was transported to the parking lot at some point afterward. The idea that it got there via a tire a tread would also explain how one side got chewed up when the rest of the bullet looks pretty intact. If it did land in the parking lot it would have had to have been unstable in the air to have impacted on it's side like that, which would put it much, much farther away than your range.

If they make a stink of it, a ballistics expert would be able to speak to the likelihood of it having landing in the parking lot after being fired from your range. To me, that seems extremely unlikely.

[photogpat]

There's absolutely no way that bullet hit steel. There's no deformation or jacket separation at all, which would be expected of a 9mm. Jerry Miculek recently posted a video of him popping a balloon at 1000 yards. He didn't actually hit the balloon, he hit the steel it was hanging on a few inches away, and the balloon was popped by the bullet fragmentation. That bullet is way too intact to have hit a hard solid object. Even a parking lot 400 yards away would likely deform the bullet more than that. At 400 yards the bullet is still stabilized in the air, meaning it would be traveling nose first in a ballistic arc. The nose would be expected to have much more deformation on it if it hit a solid object. What's interesting is that one side looks to be more chewed up than the rest, but the nose still has it's original shape.

I'm no ballistics expert, but I'd say it's most likely that this bullet hit dirt or some other soft target somewhere, and then was transported to the parking lot at some point afterward. The idea that it got there via a tire a tread would also explain how one side got chewed up when the rest of the bullet looks pretty intact. If it did land in the parking lot it would have had to have been unstable in the air to have impacted on it's side like that, which would put it much, much farther away than your range.

If they make a stink of it, a ballistics expert would be able to speak to the likelihood of it having landing in the parking lot after being fired from your range. To me, that seems extremely unlikely.

Where would a 115g-124g 9mm bullet cross the trans-sonic barrier? It would start to become unstable in the air and tumble there, right? Paging Seismic Sam or OldManFCSA....

[yuppiejr]

There's absolutely no way that bullet hit steel. There's no deformation or jacket separation at all, which would be expected of a 9mm. Jerry Miculek recently posted a video of him popping a balloon at 1000 yards. He didn't actually hit the balloon, he hit the steel it was hanging on a few inches away, and the balloon was popped by the bullet fragmentation. That bullet is way too intact to have hit a hard solid object. Even a parking lot 400 yards away would likely deform the bullet more than that. At 400 yards the bullet is still stabilized in the air, meaning it would be traveling nose first in a ballistic arc. The nose would be expected to have much more deformation on it if it hit a solid object. What's interesting is that one side looks to be more chewed up than the rest, but the nose still has it's original shape.

I'm no ballistics expert, but I'd say it's most likely that this bullet hit dirt or some other soft target somewhere, and then was transported to the parking lot at some point afterward. The idea that it got there via a tire a tread would also explain how one side got chewed up when the rest of the bullet looks pretty intact. If it did land in the parking lot it would have had to have been unstable in the air to have impacted on it's side like that, which would put it much, much farther away than your range.

If they make a stink of it, a ballistics expert would be able to speak to the likelihood of it having landing in the parking lot after being fired from your range. To me, that seems extremely unlikely.

If someone held their gun at a high angle and fired up in the air it would be possible it could travel 400 yards out on a much higher trajectory and tumble back to earth at terminal velocity which isn't fast enough to kill a human or cause major deformation of the projectile (per my link above). If the bullet came out of a berm or dirt pile I'd expect greater deformation of the jacket, and I can't figure out where/how someone would get a fired but barely deformed bullet stuck in their tire treads unless they were doing ballistic gel/water jug testing and happened to drop a bunch of projectiles in the parking lot on their way out, etc...

I'd agree with Rip on this, assume the worst and take the opportunity to figure out how to reduce the change of something like this happening.

[jshuberg]

I don't think so. Most 9mm rounds go subsonic at around 20-40 yards (depending on the atmospherics). While a rifle bullet will tend to "wobble" when it goes subsonic, it only does this when it's already slightly unstable in flight. If the bullet is on a true ballistic arc, meaning it's traveling perfectly nose forward, it's not effected by going subsonic much at all. A 408 CheyTac is an example of a rifle round that is designed to hold its trajectory after it goes subsonic because it goes subsonic perfectly nose forward rather than at a slight angle to it's direction of travel.

The fact that people can hit targets significantly past the point where the bullet goes subsonic is evidence that it's not "tumbling" after having gone subsonic.

It either was a very, very bizarre combination of circumstances and it fell from the sky at terminal velocity, or it didn't land there but was transported there by something. Just my $0.02...

[yuppiejr]

Another interesting bit based on the fact that only the SIDE of the clearly fired bullet seems to have any impact mark which likely matches the surface of the parking lot on which it was found:

"The wind tunnel also showed that the most stable falling position for the bullets was on their side."

http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/04/epis ... _vo_1.html

Bullet is fired at a high angle, destabilizes as it becomes subsonic and loses it's forward momentum a few thousand feet up, falls to earth and impacts the parking lot on it's side 400 yards away.

[jshuberg]

If someone held their gun at a high angle and fired up in the air it would be possible it could travel 400 yards out on a much higher trajectory and tumble back to earth at terminal velocity which isn't fast enough to kill a human or cause major deformation of the projectile (per my link above). If the bullet came out of a berm or dirt pile I'd expect greater deformation of the jacket, and I can't figure out where/how someone would get a fired but barely deformed bullet stuck in their tire treads unless they were doing ballistic gel/water jug testing and happened to drop a bunch of projectiles in the parking lot on their way out, etc...

I've found bullets lying near a berm 50 yards from the firing line, and they don't look very deformed unless they hit a rock or something. Erosion and rain tend to release their treasures back to the world over the course of time. There's any number of reasons that it could end up somewhere else, my point is that it's very possible that could have happened. A direct long range pistol shot or a ricochet couldn't have happened. Artificially transported somehow or falling back to earth, those make sense but neither are very dangerous.

[Scratch]

I've seen many bullets on my range that look like the first two pics, but never like that last pic. My guess is that it was stuck in a tire, traveled a few miles and was dropped at that spot.

[yuppiejr]

Artificially transported somehow or falling back to earth, those make sense but neither are very dangerous.

I'd agree that these are the two most likely scenarios given the evidence at hand. Now I'd evaluate the plausibility of the two scenarios...

1) Someone at a nearby gun range has either a negligent discharge with their muzzle directed over the berm or purposefully fires their pistol one or more times in the air, one bullet finds its way to the church parking lot and impacts the asphalt where it is later found and reported.

2) Someone who hates guns and or wishes to do harm to the range figures out how to collect a relatively pristine 9mm bullet and plants it in the parking lot of a nearby church to stir up trouble.

While it is probably not the conclusion best for the range or shooting community at large I'd consider the first much more likely than the second... didn't we just having a thread about the regularity with which private gun ranges seem to have problems with people shooting target frames and other "out of play" things? While I am sure the motivation exists, finding an anti-gun nut who knows enough about bullets/ballistics to access a private gun range in order to find and pick one out of/in front of a berm that would make the perfect "plant" in a situation like this seems highly unlikely, particularly given the relatively "friendly" climate of the institution in question.

Regardless, even if it was a "plant" now would be a good time to review and shore up safety procedures + facilities at the range in question.

[jshuberg]

Regardless, even if it was a "plant" now would be a good time to review and shore up safety procedures + facilities at the range in question.

No argument from me there.

I still tend to think that it was somehow transported there. It may not even have come from that range, but from someones private property where they do some pistol shooting. A kid could have picked it up and chucked it across the parking lot. It could very easily be a perfectly innocent reason how it got to where it was.

Contrast that to someone having a negligent discharge, or even intentionally firing into the air. It would have to be an absolutely perfect set of conditions for it to land in that one specific spot. The height it traveled, the angle of fire, upper and lower level wind patterns, density-altitude - all of these things would have to be perfect for it to land in a specific spot. There could literally be thousands of straight-into-the-air reckless discharges without another bullet landing in the same parking lot. Is it possible this happened? Yes, absolutely. However I tend to think it's more likely that rather than falling from the sky, it ended up there because someone (intentionally or accidentally) brought it there with them. That seems much more likely to me.

Either way the danger to the public is pretty much nil. But yes, safety procedures can always be reviewed whenever some has an honest question.

[shooter115]

I passed the pictures off to a ballistics engineer and he said the markings on the bullet are consistent with a bullet fired into sand or soft soil. Also came to find that the gravel pit that the base material for the parking lot came from is commonly used by some people as a shooting range. I think the mystery is solved here.

[AFTERMATH]

I passed the pictures off to a ballistics engineer and he said the markings on the bullet are consistent with a bullet fired into sand or soft soil. Also came to find that the gravel pit that the base material for the parking lot came from is commonly used by some people as a shooting range. I think the mystery is solved here.

Hmmm... I've seen a lot of bullets fired into sand and soft soil, 9mm in particular and at some very short ranges, I've never seen one quite like that. Too me the markings look like what I'd expect to see from a bullet that's been kicked around awhile beneath car tires little bit. But I don't think it's been in the elements very long, unless it's pretty dry out there.

The gravel pit scenario is quite likely, as are a plethora of others...

Someone went to the range before church, stepped on bullet while walking at the target line. Bullet stuck in treads of boots, and followed shooter to church where it was found in the parking lot. - I've found them on my car floor plenty of times...

Kid picks up bullet from range as souvenir, kid loses interest or simply loses bullet in church parking lot. - I would've done this as a kid, or maybe even now...

Militant atheists attack church only to have bullets stopped by hand of God. -Haven't seen this yet, but I find it quite plausible.

Unless there's an impact, or guaranteed lack there of, they'll never be able to prove whether or not it came from your range.
Review range procedure and protocol - If you find an issue, address it.

[Seismic Sam]

Yes, it's possible, and your range has a HUGE problem. I know of a case were there were dozens of bullets well over 120 yards at a 45 degree angle from the line of fire.

In addition, I have heard of another incident where a guy came into a shooting range (no idea where it was, and I didn't want to know...) with a small stryrofoam coffee cup and dumped a small handful of bullets on the counter of the clubhouse. Turns out he had fished all of them out of his swimming pool. Told the club that he was calling the cops if any more showed up in his pool.

Looking at the abrasions and pitting on the bullet, my guess it got driven over quite a few times before somebody found it. And yes, at this point you should STFU and your range needs to figure out how to keep itself open. If nothing else, raking ALL the rocks out of the backstop would be a good first step. Good luck. You're gonna need it!!

EDIT: You can forget the fantasy about some anti gun person planting the bullet. None of them would have been smart enough to plant just one, and seeing as they would have had to buy at least a box of 50, they would have scattered the whole box around the parking lot.