The current climate of the shooting sports in MN

[Erud]

Perfect example of what NOT to do right here.

https://mnshootingsports.org/#2756

This is the place I'd expect to find a calendar of matches. Instead there's two events listed and about 20-30 posts about gun politics.

This site doesn't have the info I am looking for and if I was new to guns, it just reinforces the notion that if I went to one of these events I'd be surrounded by OFWDs spouting NRA crap. Not exactly the way to draw in noobs. ( And This is coming from an OFWD NRA member).

Funny that you mention the MSSA. To my knowledge, that organization consists of one man and really has nothing to do with shooting sports, as you've already noticed. On the "About MSSA" page, the owner says this:

"MSSA (MINNESOTA SHOOTING SPORTS ASSOCIATION) is a Non Profit Incorporated March 28, 2012 per MN SS 317A, . MSSA is being organized per the guidelines in the NRA State Association Officers' Handbook. Per the Handbook, to serve "...shooting sports enthusiasts, hunters and legal firearms owners." MSSA is being organized per the guidelines in the NRA State Association Officers' Handbook."

Ok, great. Just one problem - MN already has a NRA State Association and has since 1932. It's called the MRRA, and their web page is here:

http://mrra.org/index.htm

If you look at the "Legislative News" link towards the top left of the page, you might recognize a familiar name if you just popped over from the MSSA page. So what's the big idea with the MSSA? Who knows.

At any rate, the MRRA has schedules for many shooting disciplines up on the web page. The schedules are very accurate and updated frequently. Results are sort of hit-or-miss, as it's entirely dependent on each club's match director to get them sent in for the webmaster(who is also a member here) to post. Seems like that'd be easy to arrange, but unfortunately it isn't. None of the action-type shooting sports are affiliated with the MRRA and I have no idea why. I am a Highpower shooter since 2007 and have been fairly active in the MRRA in the last couple of years. There may be a back-story behind the action sports not being represented that I just don't know about. MRRA is about 600 members strong with the large majority being competitive shooters. Quite a few programs to develop and sponsor junior competitive shooting. Maybe at some point the MRRA and the various USPSA/IDPA/3-Gun, etc groups will join forces, maybe not. Anyways, take a look at the site, maybe there's something that you'll find interesting.

[highwarden]

Just a few thoughts after discussing this thread with some friends.

The people you are looking to attract and keep now are what some would call casual shooters. You already have the serious shooters. At least the ones that haven't gotten pissed off and gone away because they were insulted, mocked, unfairly treated or cheated. Remember that is their perception of what happened.

Westberg is trying to get the word out to encourage new shooters. So how do we get them back.

First off, be nice to them without compromising safety. Use random draw to determine shoot order. No more of having High Masters or Pros or whatever you call them shoot first. No special people, no special favors.

If you can't be positive, polite, encouraging, supportive, and helpful,then SHUT THE **** UP AND STAY THE **** AWAY from new people.

If you don't know the answer to something make sure you let them know that what you are saying is purely your opinion or your guess and they should check a rulebook, website, or other reasonable authority.

Split the match up so new shooters and casual shooters can shoot one or two stages but do it so everyone shoots the intro stages, then the hard core shooters can come back and continue till shutdown.

[Snowgun]

Just a few thoughts after discussing this thread with some friends.

The people you are looking to attract and keep now are what some would call casual shooters. You already have the serious shooters. At least the ones that haven't gotten pissed off and gone away because they were insulted, mocked, unfairly treated or cheated. Remember that is their perception of what happened.

Westberg is trying to get the word out to encourage new shooters. So how do we get them back.

First off, be nice to them without compromising safety. Use random draw to determine shoot order. No more of having High Masters or Pros or whatever you call them shoot first. No special people, no special favors.

If you can't be positive, polite, encouraging, supportive, and helpful,then SHUT THE **** UP AND STAY THE **** AWAY from new people.

If you don't know the answer to something make sure you let them know that what you are saying is purely your opinion or your guess and they should check a rulebook, website, or other reasonable authority.

Split the match up so new shooters and casual shooters can shoot one or two stages but do it so everyone shoots the intro stages, then the hard core shooters can come back and continue till shutdown.

Highwarden, I think you are interesting.

Mostly because it is obvious you have a serious axe to grind,but I can't for the life of me figure out which competition you are talking about, and I hope that you could help us with this by giving examples. Even just by telling us which competition (trap, action pistol, sass, etc), and maybe what club would be a good start.

The reason is that everything you are saying sounds really sucky, but I have never witnessed this in action shooting in the MN area. Now I only have experience in action pistol and 3 gun, so whatever else happens wherever I can't comment on...so your examples about shooting order and intro stages are throwing me for a loop.

All I know is that new shooters in any action pistol are treated very well as long as they are safe and don't have an attitude when it comes to learning the ropes. I'd like to know what experiences you are referring to.

[TH3180]

Here is my take on action shooting in Minnesota. 3.5 years ago I shot a gun for the 1st time in my life, at 30 years old. Later that year I shot my 1st match at Burnsville. Fast forward to this year. I have meet many great people. Some I consider good friends. This year I shot some points matches and the section match. I'm still not very good at the action pistol game but I have fun. That's because of the people. It's funny to me that we are all competing against each other but yet so many are willing to help a guy like me improve. I can count on one hand the amount if jerks I've meet shooting action pistol in the past 3 years.
Oh and the original intent of this thread. If someone really wants to shoot a match during the summer months. It's not hard to find one.

[Snowgun]

Here is my take on action shooting in Minnesota. 3.5 years ago I shot a gun for the 1st time in my life, at 30 years old. Later that year I shot my 1st match at Burnsville. Fast forward to this year. I have meet many great people. Some I consider good friends. This year I shot some points matches and the section match. I'm still not very good at the action pistol game but I have fun. That's because of the people. It's funny to me that we are all competing against each other but yet so many are willing to help a guy like me improve. I can count on one hand the amount if jerks I've meet shooting action pistol in the past 3 years.
Oh and the original intent of this thread. If someone really wants to shoot a match during the summer months. It's not hard to find one.

It was great seeing you step into big boy pants this year , and you rocked it all the way from your first SCAPSA match to that full blown grueling competition they called a sectional in only one year! Nice work Buddy! See you at burnsville this winter, at least one beer on me...

[highwarden]

Perhaps I did not make myself clear enough in my first reply. My responses and statements were based on what friends told me when I tried to get them to go to some kind of a match with me. If I can collect some specific examples regarding type of match, locations, offensive individuals, What the exact problem was, I will post those. I was referring to all kinds of competition, not just action pistol or 3 gun.

My personal experience is such that I usually laugh it off unless it is a matter of life safety or egregious cheating. If it is a matter of rules that I don't agree with, I will probably express my opinion while complying as necessary. Since I am mainly concerned with my own level of performance, there are some things that don't matter to me. The kinds of things that have caused juniors, women, more mature men to turn away and not come back will probably just annoy me but they won't stop me from participating unless I chose to do something I find more enjoyable.

I offered comments and suggestions in my earlier posts on things that might affect more casual shooters choosing to participate. So far all but one of the responses have been reasonable mature comments.

[tazdevil]

Perhaps I did not make myself clear enough in my first reply. My responses and statements were based on what friends told me when I tried to get them to go to some kind of a match with me. If I can collect some specific examples regarding type of match, locations, offensive individuals, What the exact problem was, I will post those. I was referring to all kinds of competition, not just action pistol or 3 gun.

My personal experience is such that I usually laugh it off unless it is a matter of life safety or egregious cheating. If it is a matter of rules that I don't agree with, I will probably express my opinion while complying as necessary. Since I am mainly concerned with my own level of performance, there are some things that don't matter to me. The kinds of things that have caused juniors, women, more mature men to turn away and not come back will probably just annoy me but they won't stop me from participating unless I chose to do something I find more enjoyable.

I offered comments and suggestions in my earlier posts on things that might affect more casual shooters choosing to participate. So far all but one of the responses have been reasonable mature comments.

Complete amateur 3 gun competitor here, and same with tac shotgun matches. I have not witnessed any cheating at any of these matches I have attended in the last 2 years. Nor have I been ridiculed in any way due to my lack of ability or lack of speed. To be honest, I don't think the MN3GG, or most of the other competitors, would ever put up with that type of behavior. There have been people that made mistakes and brought the wrong type of ammo to a match, to which they were instructed that it is not the correct type and to not use it again. Only once have I heard anyone get "huffy" about it, and it was pointed out to that person it is right there in the rules on the MN3GG website about ammo types per particular match. Since that was how they learned of the match, you would think they could've checked the rules. Or simply asked if uncertain, Jay, Jomar, Brian, Mark and so on are very accommodating to newcomers. I have laughed WITH other competitors at a mistake I have made on a stage, but they never laughed AT my mistakes.

First off, be nice to them without compromising safety. Use random draw to determine shoot order. No more of having High Masters or Pros or whatever you call them shoot first. No special people, no special favors.

I completely disagree here, and here's why. In every 3 gun and tac shotgun match I have shot, we make it a point that the newcomers DO NOT do a stage as the "first shooter" on it (unless they reallly want to), so they can see exactly how someone seasoned goes through the various parts of the stage, take what parts they like and approach it in their own way. A 3 gun stage can be confusing if you've never shot it, or are in your first year of shooting it. There's the matter of which gun is first, what positions/targets to engage with which weapon, targets that are multi-weapon approachable, weapon changing and how to do it safely, the 180 deg rule, shoot/noshoot targets, rapid loading and various methods, failures, etc.etc. Usually, the squad chooses to either keep the shooting order, or change it on every stage.

[westberg]

Highwarden, I think we would all like to hear more details of these bad experiences if you can get them. The rules are the rules which defined safety and the competition. Unless they are not applied equally to all competitors or an RO is not making the correct call, which in my experience has been corrected at the time of occurrence, there is just not a lot that can be done in that area.
After saying this, I have encountered some RO's who are better suited talking to a squad of Marines then the paying competitors who are doing this as a hobby. There have also been people for whatever reason a particular competition just does not fit them, too slow a pace, too fast a pace, skill level doesn't match, don't like the rules......

There have been good suggestions on getting the word out but they are based on people already aware of the competitions. I know some PTC Instructors who do provide information on competitions and more advanced training.

[farmerj]

Highwarden, I think we would all like to hear more details of these bad experiences if you can get them. The rules are the rules which defined safety and the competition. Unless they are not applied equally to all competitors or an RO is not making the correct call, which in my experience has been corrected at the time of occurrence, there is just not a lot that can be done in that area.
After saying this, I have encountered some RO's who are better suited talking to a squad of Marines then the paying competitors who are doing this as a hobby. There have also been people for whatever reason a particular competition just does not fit them, too slow a pace, too fast a pace, skill level doesn't match, don't like the rules......

There have been good suggestions on getting the word out but they are based on people already aware of the competitions. I know some PTC Instructors who do provide information on competitions and more advanced training.

Well, there are some places I just won't shoot because of WHO is running the program. But that has more to do with personal differences than the programs offered. Albeit, it's a much more "laid back" program too. No, it's not the steel shoots either.

[JJ]

Very interesting thread. Personally, I find highwarden's experiences/observations to be completely opposite of my experiences. I would guess that guys like myself, are the people Westy is trying to capture. I have shot IDPA, steel, bullseye, trap, skeet, and F-class at different times over the past couple of years.

I have never found a groove that I can stick with, showing up at random. The only place I felt at all an outcast was F-class, but that was as a result of the RO not believing my 6br could make hits at 600 with the super light varmint bullets I had loaded. I was forced to load bullets too heavy for my twist, and I lost half a season trying to get a load that worked at all in the range the RO wanted (no note of this restriction in any rule book). Beyond that singular RO, I found the rest of the shooters to be likable, and more than willing to help.

The IDPA I have shot had flat out had the best people. I found it extremely helpful to squad with a mix of shooters at all different levels. usually the best shooters shot first, generally because they were the first to turn in score sheets. If people take the time to help setup and/or tear down, you become instant "good people" to the regulars.

Honestly the biggest thing holding me back is time. I hunt, fish, shoot, and 4-wheel. My summers are SO jam packed, it's hard to decide what doesn't get attention. I would love to be able to shoot leagues on weekday evenings, but there are not a lot of events on weekday evenings, and none of them are close. Couple that with a work schedule that has an open ended end time, it's very hard to make a habit of going.

The other big one for me, is cost. If I want to just shoot 2-3 IDPA events, I have to be an IDPA member. Some clubs required people have memberships to shoot, and this all adds up.

[Dakotared]

I am so thank full for all the westberg has done in putting on match's in Forest Lake. I have been treated so well there, even when I made some pretty big mistakes. Every one has been so helpful trying to help me improve. I still compete for last place every time I show up but I am getting better. I wish I could make it to all the Monday night USPSA shoots but do to work and family I have only been able to make it to 1 so far and will have to miss the next on.

I have only gotten in to shoot sports in the last year and have found so many nice people that I want to keep coming back. Heck at one of the steel shoots I did not have a holster for my gun so another member let me use an extra gun that they brought so I could shoot Man V Man.

All I know MN has a great action shoot sports due to the hard work of many like Westberg, Benny, China Kay and many others.

[PRS]

I bought a gun threeyears ago and found the twin cities idpa after seeing some action shooting on shooting USA. I've gotten help from almost every shooter out there and I love all the games. I try to attend everything my pocket book allows. I think MN could do with a centralized website that encompassed all the MN comp shooting rld from sass to f class ti sa.

[Spinner]

Why not get the local gun shops involved? They stand to gain as much as the clubs by promoting these events. If you're "Joe Newgunowner" doesn't going and shooting some steel sound good?

Just a thought.

Ben


Spinner

[PRS]

Arnzen has been pretty heavy in promoting all types of competitive shooting. They've got guys who have done F class, Sass, uspsa, and ATA.

[rugersol]

I've dragged a few folks to USPSA matches ... kicking & screaming ... they all said they enjoyed it ... they did it again ... then most simply stopped goin ... as is, obviously, the case, with most anyone

USPSA CAN be fun! ... it can also be competitive! ... I'd guess, a lotta folks have trouble limiting themselves to the fun part ... maybe even jest getting there, in the first place

A lotta folks I've tried to get to show up come up with no end of excuses! ... I suspect this is the reason most of us've never heard of, or seen, any of what high warden's acquaintances claim ... except, course, for the more experienced shooters goin first ... ironic, that they often do so, at their own peril, solely for the benefit of the less experienced!

As difficult as it may be for some of us to believe, not everyone who owns a pistol, likes to shoot! ... at least, not in, what is, by definition, a competition!

In fact, a couple years ago, I devised a "league" that focused on keeping scores optional and/or private due greatly to the input of the principals!

Regardless ... USPSA is most certainly not the end all! ... I still enjoy it ... and will likely continue!

But, point of fact, I jest checked my calendar, and I will not be attending the 3-gun this Saturday ... 5mi from my house ... as I will otherwise be 70mi away ... shooting a 4-gun match ... shooting 2 pistols, at the same time ... in preparation, for the upcoming Midwest regionals, 2wk later! ... and not cause I get to wear a cowboy hat!

And no, SASS ain't for everyone, neither! ... but, the idea that the two can't be combined in a way to capitalize on both their strengths, is laughable!

... moreover, there's no reason to believe such a thing'd take away from either one ... quite the opposite, I suspect!