Oakdale Thursday USPSA League

[Snofish]

Well if I ever received a healthy dose of karma it was tonight. Duke reminded me we were only 0.7% off each other's standings for the season. What did I do? Shoot my worst oakdale match in history.

Whoops

Relax, No mere mortals were allowed into the top 5. You just shuffled those same names a bit from previous weeks, that's all.

Well, not quite. The previous week (the 17th) when Jonah wasn't there, at least one "mere mortal" managed to sneak into the top 5 overall in Production. Clearly he was shirking his responsibility to keep said "mere mortal" out by not showing up, right?

I stand corrected, no disrespect intended towards your (or others) achievement.

I was simply trying to jab Jonah on his (infrequent) misfortunes

...all to often I am the one who gives him the opportunity to give me a hard time with my performance, or should I say, lack there of.

[jonahk]

I was simply trying to jab Jonah on his (infrequent) misfortunes

Oh I crash plenty - I just try to hide it from most of you by shooting at other clubs on other days

[andrewP]

I was simply trying to jab Jonah on his (infrequent) misfortunes

Oh, me too, for sure. A little jab at Jonah is the best I'm likely to do; he's both faster *and* more accurate than me every time we're both there. I needed him to not be there in order to place reasonably well, after all.

[LumberZach]

So I have been looking at the rule book on uspsa.org, and first of all it is extremely helpful. Next, it looks like limited-10 doesn't have a holster restriction and I have been trying to find out if I can use an appendix holster for competing here. As far as I can tell it comes down to the match director, but I am wondering what you guys say. Also, it looks like limited-10 has only had about 3 shooters all summer, so it may be easier to be in the top 5

[SkyRock]

So I have been looking at the rule book on uspsa.org, and first of all it is extremely helpful. Next, it looks like limited-10 doesn't have a holster restriction and I have been trying to find out if I can use an appendix holster for competing here. As far as I can tell it comes down to the match director, but I am wondering what you guys say. Also, it looks like limited-10 has only had about 3 shooters all summer, so it may be easier to be in the top 5

There are holster restrictions for Production and Single Stack. Appendix holsters cannot be used in these divisions. L10 division has had three shooters this summer, each shooting on a different day (each shooter shot L10 only once). So it's a 3-way tie for first place Limited 10 Division!

[LumberZach]

So I have been looking at the rule book on uspsa.org, and first of all it is extremely helpful. Next, it looks like limited-10 doesn't have a holster restriction and I have been trying to find out if I can use an appendix holster for competing here. As far as I can tell it comes down to the match director, but I am wondering what you guys say. Also, it looks like limited-10 has only had about 3 shooters all summer, so it may be easier to be in the top 5

There are holster restrictions for Production and Single Stack. Appendix holsters cannot be used in these divisions. L10 division has had three shooters this summer, each shooting on a different day (each shooter shot L10 only once). So it's a 3-way tie for first place Limited 10 Division!

So appendix can only not be used in production and single stack, but everywhere else it is fine? Everyone else likes to game the stages, I might as well shoot a division that no one else is in!

[andrewP]

So appendix can only not be used in production and single stack, but everywhere else it is fine? Everyone else likes to game the stages, I might as well shoot a division that no one else is in!

My understanding is that AIWB is legal in Open, Limited, and L10. The only hurdle I'm aware of beyond the obvious safety concerns is making sure that your RO is ok with it. AIWB is pretty much a "you screw up, you die" sort of proposition. It's one thing to put a bullet into your butt, lower leg, etc because you screwed up while holstering. It's entirely another to put one into your groin/femoral artery.

Regarding "gaming the standings" by being in a different division, I've experienced that same temptation. I just keep registering for Production because I value the competition.

[SkyRock]

...So appendix can only not be used in production and single stack, but everywhere else it is fine?

Yes.

Everyone else likes to game the stages...

Not everyone!

I might as well shoot a division that no one else is in!

Revolver?

[SkyRock]

So appendix can only not be used in production and single stack, but everywhere else it is fine? Everyone else likes to game the stages, I might as well shoot a division that no one else is in!

My understanding is that AIWB is legal in Open, Limited, and L10. The only hurdle I'm aware of beyond the obvious safety concerns is making sure that your RO is ok with it. AIWB is pretty much a "you screw up, you die" sort of proposition. It's one thing to put a bullet into your butt, lower leg, etc because you screwed up while holstering. It's entirely another to put one into your groin/femoral artery.

Regarding "gaming the standings" by being in a different division, I've experienced that same temptation. I just keep registering for Production because I value the competition.

I don't have any problem with carrying a gun in the appendix position. It's reholstering after "Make Ready" when I (or the current RO) can't clearly see the gun (Is your finger out of the trigger guard?), and when the shooter (with any experience level) draws "at speed" that makes me nervous.

I don't want any accidents, or even close calls, on my watch!

[jonahk]

I don't have any problem with carrying a gun in the appendix position. It's reholstering after "Make Ready" when I (or the current RO) can't clearly see the gun (Is your finger out of the trigger guard?), and when the shooter (with any experience level) draws "at speed" that makes me nervous.

I don't want any accidents, or even close calls, on my watch!

I'll be a bit more blunt than Mike here - Please don't use an appendix holster to shoot USPSA.

To further his point, it is pretty much impossible for me or any RO to see safe gun handling at any phase of make ready, after the beep, and during the reholstering after ULSC without putting our body in front of yours. (Okay, maybe Gundry because he's so tall he can see over people's shoulders.) If I'm RO'ing someone who shows up with an appendix holster, I will ask that they start from the low ready position to avoid that whole process.

[jonahk]

Regarding "gaming the standings" by being in a different division, I've experienced that same temptation. I just keep registering for Production because I value the competition.

Wait, there are divisions other than Production?

[Ron Burgundy]

Jonah, I agree with the concerns a RO would have with an appendix holster. You can buy a cheap OWB holster for about the same as a match fee.

How do you handle the timer for a low ready start? Add time? How much? I draw really slow -- I need to figure out if Id be better off starting from low ready

[andrewP]

I don't have any problem with carrying a gun in the appendix position. It's reholstering after "Make Ready" when I (or the current RO) can't clearly see the gun (Is your finger out of the trigger guard?), and when the shooter (with any experience level) draws "at speed" that makes me nervous.

I don't want any accidents, or even close calls, on my watch!

I'll be a bit more blunt than Mike here - Please don't use an appendix holster to shoot USPSA.

To further his point, it is pretty much impossible for me or any RO to see safe gun handling at any phase of make ready, after the beep, and during the reholstering after ULSC without putting our body in front of yours. (Okay, maybe Gundry because he's so tall he can see over people's shoulders.) If I'm RO'ing someone who shows up with an appendix holster, I will ask that they start from the low ready position to avoid that whole process.

I want to make it clear that I'm not planning on using an AIWB holster anytime soon. (I don't own one, I absolutely believe what I said earlier about "you screw up, you die," and would never even consider carrying something like a Glock/M&P/similar in one due to the low margin for error that those guns present.) That said, it is possible to run one safely, and I do feel like I should play devil's advocate here. You guys seem to be saying that you're ok with someone holstering a hot gun AIWB as long as you're not watching, but you're not ok with it when you're there. That seems a bit...backwards. At least if they have a ND while holstering at a match, there are plenty of people there to call 911, possibly render immediate aid, etc. If they're alone at home, they're arguably more likely to die due to lack of anyone there to help.

I think it would make perfect sense to tell AIWB shooters that if they holster even slightly quickly that they'll receive a safety-related DQ for their trouble, but outright prohibiting AIWB feels like the RO is violating the rules. Don't the rules, theoretically, at least, require guns to start in the position and condition dictated in the stage description?

[andrewP]

Oh, and a thought regarding the RO being able to see the holstering process: just have the shooter rotate 60 degrees toward their strong hand. They won't violate the 180 and you'll be able to see everything they're doing without putting yourself in harm's way. Doesn't help on the draw, I know, but at least it helps with what's arguably the largest safety concern of the whole process.

[SkyRock]

...You guys seem to be saying that you're ok with someone holstering a hot gun AIWB as long as you're not watching, but you're not ok with it when you're there....

BEEP! WRONG!

The RO by your shoulder is watching your gun! I say again, The RO by your shoulder is watching your gun! If he can't see your gun, it is not OK!

We can't see your trigger finger when you are reholstering after making ready, if you're using an appendix holster. You could be the safest person on the planet, but we need to see what you're doing! The RO is there to make sure you don't do something unsafe, to you, to the RO, to the spectators, to the person on the other side of the wall, down the street...you get the idea.

If we can't see it, we don't know if you are safe or not, but we must assume you aren't.