Advanced Handgun Course

[Duane J]

Of course, since less than 0.9% of DGUs involve pulling a trigger*, the main component of any permit to carry class should be pulling the trigger, instead of the legal work and safety.




*National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of Justice Statistics, BATF estimates on handgun supply.

DING DING DING!!!

+1

[princewally]

And this shouldn't be construed as denigrating advanced training. There's no such thing as too much training, IMO.

[Duane J]

And this shouldn't be construed as denigrating advanced training. There's no such thing as too much training, IMO.

i concur.

[hammAR]

And this shouldn't be construed as denigrating advanced training. There's no such thing as too much training, IMO.

You haven't seen ttousi have you.......
he has been so over trained that he confuses simple commands......like sit....

[Duane J]

And this shouldn't be construed as denigrating advanced training. There's no such thing as too much training, IMO.

You haven't seen ttousi have you.......
he has been so over trained that he confuses simple commands......like sit....

[ttousi]

That command and the similar command with the "h" always throw me.

[Don L]

Maybe the A/T course at Gunsite has changed since I took it (I was in one of the first ones). We started out each day on a square range practicing "fundamentals" before we went on to the simulators of the day/night. The advanced courses I've taken at TR, Blackwater, and FAS all included some square range work, particularly the first day, as a "warm up" for the class, as well as an indicator for the instructors of everyone's skill level. TR's DH3 was intense, and half of it was range work. I too, am amazed at the lack of "participants" (notice I'm not saying "lack of interest") when some of the "big names" come to the area, in addition to what's available locally. There can be a number of reasons: scheduling, affordability, keeping peace at home, etc., that I won't even begin to guess at. As an example: There's been two "big name" courses put on locally in the last two years that I would have attended, yet the scheduling didn't work out for me. "What's available for advanced training" topic comes up from time to time, and I don't believe there's any one answer.

My $0.02

Don

[David]

Don,

Referencing the ATP class at Gunsite, what I meant was that no instruction happened on the square range. Certainly we spent an hour or so in the morning of the first day making sure our stuff worked and we were all loosened up, and returned there perhaps once or twice more for similar reasons during the five day period.

My point is that "advanced" classes at larger schools typically don't spend a lot of time on basic fundamentals such as holster work and reloads. I'm guessing A&S has these classes, too, and I wish they were available, because they look like a good outfit.

[ttousi]

Cost and scheduling I would guess are two of the biggest reasons that participation is low. Even if you bring the course in locally, the lodging and transportation costs are the only costs that are reduced. Course tuition coupled with the loss of wages is a substantial issue.....then add the ever rising cost of ammunition.

[phorvick]

Cost and scheduling I would guess are two of the biggest reasons that participation is low. Even if you bring the course in locally, the lodging and transportation costs are the only costs that are reduced. Course tuition coupled with the loss of wages is a substantial issue.....then add the ever rising cost of ammunition.

One of the fun sounding classes is the one with Rob Pincus, Septe. 8 and 9. Those are weekdays. Tuition is $450. Ammo needed is 1100-1500 rounds. Let's average that to 1300.

Tuition = $450
ammo = $250 and up depending on caliber
--------------------
Total = $700
plus either loss of wages or vacation/personal days

People who do attend will have a great time....and if you think of this as a $1000 "vacation" it makes some sense. But, to get a post on this a month or so in advance...well, most folks do not have the spare $1000 laying around. Realities of life. That is not to say it is not "worth it"...I am 100% certain it is worth every penny. But.......Tom has it right. It is a substantial issue.

[1911fan]

WHile expensive training maybe a good idea, its not the be all to end all, and its a heck of a lot of money to be dumping.

Most of us would be far better off spending 30 dollars on .22 ammo and just sitting out at the farm, or the woods, or where ever, and burning up that money in the ruger or the Buckmark. I find it similar to the concept of the year round sports stuff for kids. I coach hockey and baseball, I see kids who get sent to every class on the planet, some to russia or the czech republic for that "secrets of the big red machine" I see ball players sent for T giving, x mas, and spring break to live in camps in florida and texas, but they all get beat by the rink rat or the sandlot kid who never gets any training but just does it all the time. The kid who gets his mom to deliver a pizza to the rink or only leaves the ballfield when the lights get turned off is going to beat the kid who can say "Tommy John said to throw it this way"

Sure the person with the training gets great instruction, and maybe has the perfect move, but they are so afraid of doing it wrong that they never get it right. Its like the joke "how do you get to Carnegie Hall?" "practice practice practice"


The mental aspects can be done while siting in a dark house, instead of watching TV run scenarios thru your head. If you move X what can happen, then suggest what happens if I move Y? then run the plus's and minus's. talk to others, who can examine your thoughts and moves, and cross refernce their ideas as well.

Every time you spend money on training you are costing you ammo. Sometimes it might be worth it, sometimes you need the ammo more.

[ttousi]

That is not to say it is not "worth it"...I am 100% certain it is worth every penny. ...snip... It is a substantial issue.

yup I agree with phorvick

[Pat]

Most of us would be far better off spending 30 dollars on .22 ammo and just sitting out at the farm, or the woods, or where ever, and burning up that money in the ruger or the Buckmark....

...Every time you spend money on training you are costing you ammo. Sometimes it might be worth it, sometimes you need the ammo more.

I used to feel the same way. I was a pretty fair shooter, having grown up in the woods with a .22 as a constant companion. But let me tell you, real defensive handgun training is an absolute eye opener, in a lot of different ways. All of a sudden you are not just trying to hit the target anymore; you are trying to save your own a$$ and kill the target. Also time becomes a factor, where it may not have played much a roll for you before.

I definitely learned a great deal from my training, and the more training I get, the better able I will be to survive. That's the name of the game.

[Don L]

I agree that practice is important. I've golfed with a guy who's spent $1000s of dollars on equipment, and has never taken a lesson. We can be on the course, and he'll have a bad drive, and say that "getting that new $700 driver should take care of it." When the subject of lessons comes up, his answer is "Nah, it would be a waste of money-I'll figure it out." Well, it's been 10 years, and he's doing the same as he was then. He'll go to a driving range and hit 200 balls, and nothing changes. Sure, there's some folks with natural ability, and they can practice, and pick up on what they want to learn. Myself, I need all the training I can get! A few months ago, Mary and I gave some instruction to a senior who happened to be at the same range we were, and when we were finished, he thanked us, and said "I've learned more in the last two hours than I have in the last 20 years of shooting!" I see a lot of folks show up at the ranges with the idea of "sending a few downrange", and that's all they really care about. Some are grateful if I give them some help, and some don't care-they're there to "launch a few". Others are comfortable with their current skill level. I just like to see folks improve, and have fun with this stuff. IMHO, there's training opportunities available around here for anyone who's interested in finding them, formal, or informal.

[nyffman]

IMHO, there's training opportunities available around here for anyone who's interested in finding them, formal, or informal.

That's right. It's up to you. Do you want to learn or not. As for me, I know so little, it's hard to say no to more learning.

Oh, and did I mention that Don L is a pretty dam good teacher?


Just in case you need to know.