Advanced Handgun Course

[phorvick]

IMHO, there's training opportunities available around here for anyone who's interested in finding them, formal, or informal.
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But, there is the concept of perceived value. I.e., if it costs more it must be better. Of course, there is some truth to that cliche', but it is not an inerrant truth. There are many good local folks that can move people forward in their skill level without the expenditure of substantial funds. I know a fellow that posts here frequently...over 15 years of military service as small arms trainer. He is very good at taking people from point A to point B. Another is a former LEO that many many years of practical skill building to share...again local. Another has years of military spec. ops training and is superb with small arms and knives. What is missing is the cachet of being a "big name". There is nothing short or small about the training they provide. Heck, I know a fellow in the NW tundra that has the highest respect from the director of training for the Nebraska State Patrol SWAT Team; and in fact that instructor today did a class of 2 folks...one a long time leo/FBI, and the other ATF. Both said their training was "excellent".

My point is that as noted above, sometimes we get hung up on names and cost and do not see the many good opportunities available locally that can be fun, educational and....far less costly. I am not denigrating any of the more established. THey have earned their respect and their credentials. Yet, I took a class from a "big name" and although the man has credentials oozing out of his arse, he cannot communicate to others in a way that leads to success. (And, of course that can happen at any price point. I am just noting that here the concept of "perceived value" failed.)

I believe it was ET that posted here (or perhaps on a different forum) that often people rave about their instructor, yet are doing that from an experience base that is so small that they may not realize that there are others that are better. People do not like to admit (or think) that they spent money unwisely. Yet, it is also not possible to learn even a fraction of "all there is" in one, two, three, four (etc. ad nauseum) classes. If I understand his point, a person should never stop learning (or think that they have it mastered!). To that we likely all agree. What I think we often fail to see is that there is always someone better! Even the really worst of my experiences as a student I was able to pick up something useful to make the class "worth it". Always.

Right now we are losing many of our younger shooters due to costs...guns, ammo and even the high cost of some training. Isn't it nice that there are options! $3500 Kimber or a $300 used GLock. Both are good at what they do...same with instructors. I know several of the less costly folks...many (most?) offer a money back guarantee if not satisfied. Can't get any cheaper than that.

[Pat]

You know, it's sort of funny how we seem to get so hung up on the bucks being spent. Just think what it costs the average Jacques to have a boat and go fishing? Or, what does a serious tennis hobby cost?

(I'm trying to simplify for you guys the argument I made to my ex-wife, prior to our divorce. BTW I have spoken German much of my adult life, so if I put the cart before the horse's a$$, so to speak...)

Actually, the shooting sports are probably MUCH less expensive than golf, and who's going to carry a 7 iron for that errant mugger?

[cmj685]

I have appreciated Phorvick's comments, because they couldn't have been more on the mark for me too. When i found out Rob Pincus was coming here I put it on my calendar and marked those days off from everything else. I was going! Then I found out the cost, not just of the class but also of the ammo. Do I think that Rob's class would be "worth" the money--absolutely. I know that he is one of the premier trainers in the world (just look at his schedule!). Do I have an extra $700-$1000 to pay for a day or two spent with him? I just couldn't justify it no matter how hard I tried, particularly as the economy has turned down recently. I recently took an all day class from DonL for $125, and shot up maybe $20 of ammo. I am taking an all-day class from Selurcspi for about $50 or so. I could take 4 or 5 all-day classes from top local trainers like these for about the same price as Rob's class. So like Phorvick I have carefully weighed the perception of "worth" as in, what is a nationally famous instructor's class "worth". I honestly don't have any way to know beforehand! But I know how much $700 is worth! And my estimate for me at this time with my financial condition is that it would be better to spread out the cost over many classes by local guys. If I win the lottery...I am so at one of the national training facilities!

[Don L]

It looks like we're on the same page. I'm from the "The more I know, the more I don't know" frame of mind. The shooting sports are getting more expensive with ammo costs, etc., and everyone's budgets are getting pressed with gas prices, and the higher cost of living. Where one of the differences is, IMHO, are the folks who do want to pick up some new skills, and the "casual plinkers". I put on "free training" quite often, and get very few takers (one even said he wouldn't drive that far-about 20 miles). Yet recently, I've just started working with a new shooter who really wants to do well, and she will. There's that "mindset" we're talking about!

[David]

I agree that practice is important. I've golfed with a guy who's spent $1000s of dollars on equipment, and has never taken a lesson. We can be on the course, and he'll have a bad drive, and say that "getting that new $700 driver should take care of it." When the subject of lessons comes up, his answer is "Nah, it would be a waste of money-I'll figure it out." Well, it's been 10 years, and he's doing the same as he was then. He'll go to a driving range and hit 200 balls, and nothing changes. Sure, there's some folks with natural ability, and they can practice, and pick up on what they want to learn. Myself, I need all the training I can get!...I see a lot of folks show up at the ranges with the idea of "sending a few downrange", and that's all they really care about. Some are grateful if I give them some help, and some don't care-they're there to "launch a few". Others are comfortable with their current skill level...

Thank you for saying this. The golf analogy is perfect, and the concept that people are out for different things is very relevant.

[ttousi]

I have decided that DonL is now nationally known since I talked about him to my brother who lives out of state.

"MDL" known around the country ........as far north as Alaska"

So there

[cmj685]

I have decided that DonL is now nationally known since I talked about him to my brother who lives out of state.

"MDL" known around the country ........as far north as Alaska"

So there

Oh boy, I suppose that means it is only a matter of time until his prices soar to the same size as his head!

[hammAR]

I have decided that DonL is now nationally known since I talked about him to my brother who lives out of state.

"MDL" known around the country ........as far north as Alaska"

So there

Oh boy, I suppose that means it is only a matter of time until his prices soar to the same size as his head!

You will find that DonL does not have a big head, that is why he is not a moderator but just a trainer............
I would take any one of his classes because of the continuum and his mix/breadth of experience with the "pros" classes and methods............

EDITED BY AUTHOR: I forgot to add the before I hit submit................

[Don L]

Aw, shucks, guys! Thanks for the kind words! Alaska-wow! A speed draw while wearing a parka and mitts-I better start working on that!

[hammAR]

A speed draw while wearing a parka and mitts-I better start working on that!

You had better bring a real BIG First Aid kit to that one.........................

[1911fan]

Aw, shucks, guys! Thanks for the kind words! Alaska-wow! A speed draw while wearing a parka and mitts-I better start working on that!

this is one place where I see airsoft as a good idea, (only the training, not for alaska)

[jgalt]

I took DonL's "Defensive Pistol Tactics 1" course on Saturday, and not only do I know I learned an awful lot, I enjoyed myself quite a bit as well. I don't know how much more anyone can ask for. Granted, this is the first class of any type I have ever taken, so I'm sure I'd have learned a lot from any class. But still, while his teaching style seems to be very laid back (i.e. no yelling when I did something wrong or needed correction), I couldn't 'get away' with anything either. When I got something wrong - pretty much anything - not only did he catch it, he could clearly explain (and demonstrate if necessary) how to correct it. To me, this is precisely the skill I'm paying someone to have (no matter how much I'm paying them), and he's definitely got it.

To top it off, when I got there, he said that "I was the class" for the day - he had a few other 'maybes' that all canceled, so I got one-on-one training to boot! I understand from a purely business aspect how some might consider this crazy or unwise on his part, but from a customer perspective, that was fantastic. I'd certainly recommend any of his classes to anyone like myself who has little to no other class experience, and I suspect I'll still be recommending him 5 years from now once I've had a chance to go to one or two of the more famous schools around the country.

Just my 0.02, YMMV, etc, etc...

[Duane J]

When i found out Rob Pincus was coming here I put it on my calendar and marked those days off from everything else. I was going! Then I found out the cost, not just of the class but also of the ammo. Do I think that Rob's class would be "worth" the money--absolutely. I know that he is one of the premier trainers in the world (just look at his schedule!). Do I have an extra $700-$1000 to pay for a day or two spent with him? I just couldn't justify it no matter how hard I tried, particularly as the economy has turned down recently. I recently took an all day class from DonL for $125, and shot up maybe $20 of ammo. I am taking an all-day class from Selurcspi for about $50 or so. I could take 4 or 5 all-day classes from top local trainers like these for about the same price as Rob's class. So like Phorvick I have carefully weighed the perception of "worth" as in, what is a nationally famous instructor's class "worth". I honestly don't have any way to know beforehand! But I know how much $700 is worth! And my estimate for me at this time with my financial condition is that it would be better to spread out the cost over many classes by local guys. If I win the lottery...I am so at one of the national training facilities!

I can relate to this on a few different levels. The cost of ammo going up is surely putting a cramp on freely seeking out any training you choose. It makes me really look into the training and it's overall value before jumping into anything.

On the other hand, what is the value of something that may save your life someday. It's hard to think about it, but god forbid you have to rely upon your training, will the cost of it matter?? Or only the quality??

In regards to the training of Mr. Pincus. I've been trained by countless military and civilian instructors in numerous areas of firearms. While most (not all) of the training taught me a great deal, NONE of it dealt with things I found my body doing under fire (and had to fight against). There are many things your body will do in a critical incident, regardless of how you train. If you aren't training with these things in mind, your training will fail you. I learned these lessons the hard way, and had never even heard more than a mention of them in training. There is a good reason law enforcement and military from around the world request Rob's classes. There simply isn't anything else in the world like it, or an instructor as able. If anyone is or has considered it, I'd encourage you to shoot me a PM. I'm not gonna give you some used car salesman pitch about the class, but I'm happy to talk more in depth about the things the topics of the class.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if it's Rob's class, or someone elses. Only you can be a judge of it's value. Is it something that might make you shoot 4% better and 2% faster?? Maybe that's only worth $50 to you. Is it something that will change the way you train, as a whole, to be able to fuction with your bodies uncontrolable natural reactions so that you can survive?? Maybe that's worth $700. These are personal decisions made for personal reasons and there are no right or wrong answers.

Had to chime in,

D

[cmj685]

Hey Duane--I was actually hoping you would jump in since I know you have gone to considerable effort (and money) to bring Rob in! It is good to get your perspective. Thanks!

[Duane J]

Hey Duane--I was actually hoping you would jump in since I know you have gone to considerable effort (and money) to bring Rob in! It is good to get your perspective. Thanks!

Glad to add my rambling $0.02.
If you'd like to discuss that class let me know. I'm happy to give you a rundown of it.... and that'd give me an opportunity to get some details on classes you've been to I have some interest in as well.

D