Has anyone used Defensive Egde SLR15 for training?

[justaguy]

This is great!

Are we trying to call Yukonjasper a troll? Rothman are you the one that has delta with DE or are we talking about another Admin? So Fast351 has taken the class? Is there some kind of conspiracy going on here? Posts get deleted? What is the rule for deleting posts?

I can handle the truth!!

[rucker]

This is great!

Are we trying to call Yukonjasper a troll? Rothman are you the one that has delta with DE or are we talking about another Admin? So Fast351 has taken the class? Is there some kind of conspiracy going on here? Posts get deleted? What is the rule for deleting posts?

I can handle the truth!!

There were no posts deleted in this thread. The posts about Defensive Edge in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2189 were deleted as there is no reason to ruin another instructors thread with arguing about DE. That's what this thread is for

[plblark]

People who dismiss certain training vendors with no hands experience with the class should not really have a valid input as otherwise it heresay. But, then again we all have a distal exit of the alimentary canal so we get an opion by default.
[...]
There is give to get! It is up to the consumer to make an informed choice on his/her training dollars are spent.
[...]
What ever you polarized posters want to say is fine as you have your opinions, but unless they are based your hands on experience it sure muddies the waters for the prospective student of any vendor!
[...]
Make a shopping list then decide what your goals are and they are consistent with that vendor getting your training dollars and your ammo budget expenditure.

you make a good point about hands-on experience. From their website, they're offering a completely different type of training and outlook than many here or elsewhere have taken. I've never taken their training. I've heard it's good, rigorous, and DOGMATIC. That may not be for me.

As to reports of experiences with them, since I cannot report on classes I've taken, The ONLY thing I know about SLR15 is based on past experience and the responses I've gotten when people ask about them. That's not lockstep, that's finding I don't personally choose to do business with a company who behaves in such a manner.

Shilling is not an honest business practice. It's deceptive. The recent pattern looked like a duck, so I watched to see if it was a duck. It sure looks to not be a duck at this point, so I apologize to the poster who was suspected.

That doesn't change the past experience I've seen with them. The incident on TCC is not the only incident, just the most notable, local, and obvious one.

Saying people cannot hold opinions on vendors they have not actually taken training from is absurd. Plenty of people love or hate Clint Smith, Mas Ayoob, Front Sight, etc without ever having taken their classes. Where do these opinions form? Interactions, public opinions, etc...

Caveat Emptor, Buyer Beware.

That said, THIS is GREAT advice:

Make a shopping list then decide what your goals are and they are consistent with that vendor getting your training dollars and your ammo budget expenditure.

[edit to make clear who I was responding to and point out where I disagree AND where I agree]

[rucker]

Saying people cannot hold opinions on vendors they have not actually taken training from is absurd. Plenty of people love or hate Clint Smith, Mas Ayoob, Front Sight, etc without ever having taken their classes. Where do these opinions form? Interactions, public opinions, etc...

Caveat Emptor, Buyer Beware.

That reminds me that Front Sight, while considered very good, has probably the most annoying marketing I have ever been subjected to. I removed myself from their mailing list, and they respected that, but I have never received such a constant barrage of emails and phone calls from a company before!

I think I had a point to this... probably that business practices, good or bad, don't necessarily reflect on the actual product.

[hammAR]

In a word, bull****.

I agree this is BS, referring to what is contained herein, it is not Moderator quality.

Shills for "that company" have repeatedly played the part of people asking for information in order to promote their classes. It was not "slightly over the line" for that weasel to post once, giving a glowing review of a DE class, then post several months later, saying that he had never taken a class there but had heard great things. That's called lying, and that's deceptive.

This contains personal attacks, hearsay, and events that happened on another board and are not relevant here. This is smacks once again of Drive By Moderating, and heavily supports the propagation of the regulars of said forum falling lock-step into line behind "The Man" slamming Defensive Edge's business practices as deceptive based on the actions of what, facts, disappointing as you are typically the pure information and fact go to person.

On AR15.com, the Sullyites own the Minnesota forum and ruthlessly delete any mention of any "competition." It's not one disciple, it's many, and it's not one incident, but many repeated ones.

Again, persons and events that did not happen here, this is not Moderator quality that I would expect, it is irrelevant and is further supported by bias, close mindedness evident in this statement, "I don't need to take a class there to know that I don't want to."

Oh, and as for the deleted posts? That was me. It is not appropriate to respond to an instructor's class posting by posting untruths about it and suggesting the competition.

Any questions, feel free to PM or take it up in Suggestions and Support.

And finally, I do not need to PM, as I believe in bringing this to light and not hiding it in the background. I believe that you have somehow promoted yourself to the "Minnie Me Man" in becoming the self proclaimed Inquisitor, censor, and prosecutor of heretics solely based on your definitions. In my opinion rather than being a Moderator of quality, through actions and Drive By Moderation, you have singlehandedly erased, deleted, severed, split any number of threads that you personally have not liked or agreed with.............I do not see other Moderators or even the Board Owner doing so with such impunity................

Just my thoughts, and this is not intended as a personal attack, just an questioning of behavior.....................

[yukonjasper]

I'm no troll --He says in his best James Cagney voice. Sure I'm not the prettiest guy in the world, but I'm no TROLL. You guys seriously need to lighten up. I realize that I made a mistake - won't happen again. Can't we all just get along..............

Rothman, as I said in a PM to you earlier today. I've appologized 3 or 4 times now and that's it. Now lay off.

Being a believer of capitalism, I think competition is good. If there is a superior product out there it will thrive. I have no basis for knowing, since I've not had any training except for Gun Safety in grade school, Boy Scout Summer Camp and Conceal Carry class. I guess what I'm trying to say is although I was unaware of the rules and made a mistake, the need to stomp on people who you are suspicious of is a bit irrational. This is appears to be a long standing feud - silly.

I'm a newbie and there isn't anything I can do about that except gather more experience so I'm not a newbie any more.

You guys sniping at each other doesn't speak well to the quality of these boards. Civil discourse should be the order of the day gentlemen.

I'm open to anyone who wants to try to educate me on any training courses being offered within a reasonable driving distance. I'll research and I may call for references. I hope that is OK.

[JoeH]

That reminds me that Front Sight, while considered very good, has probably the most annoying marketing I have ever been subjected to. I removed myself from their mailing list, and they respected that, but I have never received such a constant barrage of emails and phone calls from a company before!

I think I had a point to this... probably that business practices, good or bad, don't necessarily reflect on the actual product.

I agree 100%. They come across as being desperate. Being desperate is very unattractive.

[princewally]

Don't sweat it. There are a bunch of loudmouth, opinionated, willful.....folks on this forum(self included). We usually get along, or at least tolerate each other, but occasionally things get heated.

That means we're passionate.

I'm no troll --He says in his best James Cagney voice. Sure I'm not the prettiest guy in the world, but I'm no TROLL. You guys seriously need to lighten up. I realize that I made a mistake - won't happen again. Can't we all just get along..............

edited to make it clear who was getting the response

[princewally]

That reminds me that Front Sight, while considered very good, has probably the most annoying marketing I have ever been subjected to. I removed myself from their mailing list, and they respected that, but I have never received such a constant barrage of emails and phone calls from a company before!

I think I had a point to this... probably that business practices, good or bad, don't necessarily reflect on the actual product.

I agree 100%. They come across as being desperate. Being desperate is very unattractive.

Agreed. If I didn't have a certificate for a free class, I wouldn't be planning on going there. I don't like some of their business practices, either.

[justaguy]

Just so you know you didn’t break any rules. It was more of a guideline made up by one person. Also so you know to my knowledge this board doesn’t censor posts for petty ******** like this and hope that it doesn’t start. Are PM’s censored at all or are they private here? Stuff has been deleted but the times I’ve seen it done it was for a very good reason and not because of a pissing match. Dig around and find out why this forum was started and you will understand better, or just PM me and I can try to explain it to you. I like the way you make an entrance Yukonjasper.

[ree]

The rant to follow probably should be in Suggestions and Support, but I'll put it here to start. I have to agree with hammAR that deleting stuff is probably a bad idea. I don't know what solution to breaking the rules really is appropriate, but deletion without a trace seems extreme. Doesn't it make sense to do one of the following instead:

a) strike out the parts that are in violation of the rules with a note stating why, but leaving the note around so others can still see the context
b) remove the parts that are in violation, but replace with an admin note stating why
c) lock down the thread without editing anything, but provide an admin note stating why

When things start just disappearing, it is a little disturbing to those that have already read it and can no longer unread it. If you leave the original or at least some trace of it, it allows us free thinking types to make the judgement ourselves about the character and content of the offending poster. If we feel that the rules are good, then we won't have an issue with violators being told to stop...which is entirely different than violators being silenced/erased.

[westberg]

yukonjasper you are not the only one who has tried to figure out gun training in this market. There is quality options around, but it does take some research and asking, I saw nothing in your posts that warranted the response you got. There is a lot of back ground stuff in this gun community that is not readily apparent. You do start to get some idea's after hanging around awhile.
Some of the training I have taken and would recommend;
Bill's Gun Shops
AdvanceHundgun
Tactical Handgun
Holster Classes put on by REJ Firearms Training
I also took a weekend class put on by farmerj

IDPA matches, you should have some training with the holster first
The Steel Shoots are a lot of fun, both of these are great for getting additional advice all you have to do is ask.

I also plan on taking additional training or attending events coming up depending on the schedule and money, they would be John Farnams Class, Tactifun and holster class by DonL.
I know I have not even scratched the surface on other quality events and training. Maybe we should have a review section. This is now a comment to all of the instructors and anybody planning events, you may think what you have to offer is very apparent and obvious, but it is not, for new people it does take some research. We are also getting new members all of the time, they should not have to be defending them self's about being a troll. If there is some background on some instructor and or student behavior put it out in a post so we are all on the same pages.

Ron

[Aceq2jot]

In a word, bull****.

I agree this is BS, referring to what is contained herein, it is not Moderator quality.

Shills for "that company" have repeatedly played the part of people asking for information in order to promote their classes. It was not "slightly over the line" for that weasel to post once, giving a glowing review of a DE class, then post several months later, saying that he had never taken a class there but had heard great things. That's called lying, and that's deceptive.

This contains personal attacks, hearsay, and events that happened on another board and are not relevant here. This is smacks once again of Drive By Moderating, and heavily supports the propagation of the regulars of said forum falling lock-step into line behind "The Man" slamming Defensive Edge's business practices as deceptive based on the actions of what, facts, disappointing as you are typically the pure information and fact go to person.

On AR15.com, the Sullyites own the Minnesota forum and ruthlessly delete any mention of any "competition." It's not one disciple, it's many, and it's not one incident, but many repeated ones.

Again, persons and events that did not happen here, this is not Moderator quality that I would expect, it is irrelevant and is further supported by bias, close mindedness evident in this statement, "I don't need to take a class there to know that I don't want to."

Oh, and as for the deleted posts? That was me. It is not appropriate to respond to an instructor's class posting by posting untruths about it and suggesting the competition.

Any questions, feel free to PM or take it up in Suggestions and Support.

And finally, I do not need to PM, as I believe in bringing this to light and not hiding it in the background. I believe that you have somehow promoted yourself to the "Minnie Me Man" in becoming the self proclaimed Inquisitor, censor, and prosecutor of heretics solely based on your definitions. In my opinion rather than being a Moderator of quality, through actions and Drive By Moderation, you have singlehandedly erased, deleted, severed, split any number of threads that you personally have not liked or agreed with.............I do not see other Moderators or even the Board Owner doing so with such impunity................

Just my thoughts, and this is not intended as a personal attack, just an questioning of behavior.....................

+1 Gunny

[Aceq2jot]

Gunny got banned for voicing his opinion, i guess there is no such thing in the world as free speech left in the world. I do believe that is why we left the other dump

I cant believe people around here are so thin skinned it is not even funny
They are so thin skinned i would hate to work with them as they would take offence to anything you said. It must either be that or some people get to much power and let it go to their heads.


It is a real sad day when we have to say one of the top most helpful members has been forced to leave by the ghost poster.

[Andrew Rothman]

Suspensions are a private matter between the poster and management.

And, by the way, opinions are fine, but personal attacks are not. If a user can't tell the difference, a suspension gives him an undistracted chance to ponder the matter.

And, not to lecture, but "free speech" is a restriction on government. If you want to stand on the Capitol mall and yell "Andrew's an idiot," that's your Constitutional right. Do it here, and you will get suspended, because this ain't public property. It's Rucker's, so we play by his rules.