Advanced Handgun Course

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Advanced Handgun Course

Postby Pat on Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:19 pm

I believe this is a new topic, but feel free to move it if not so.

A good buddy, and a long time serious shooter, dropped a brochure off at my home this evening. A friend of his has been running a tactical school over in St. Paul for some time, up to this point geared only to the military and SWAT communities.

They are now widening their scope a bit, and seeking out folks from the greater shooting community who already have some advanced handgun training. Here's a link: http://www.aandstraining.com

They have a class coming up on Friday, 8/22. I've attached a pdf-formated outline for those interested:
scan0001.pdf
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Re: Advanced Handgun Course

Postby cmj685 on Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:36 am

I think this is an exciting development, and I am looking forward to what transpires. If anyone has taken or takes a course from these guys, please give us a report of your thoughts on the training!
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Re: Advanced Handgun Course

Postby Milos on Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:15 am

I helped them with SWAT training at Camp Ripley about 10 years ago. I played the "bad" guy and they had to chase me through the woods.Also they put me in a building and stormed it using flash bangs.WOW-it was fun...I have known the guy that runs it for close to 30 years.He was in law enforcement on local and federal level.Can't say much but he has experience in some dangerous situations.Course is not for a novice shooter.
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Re: Advanced Handgun Course

Postby cmj685 on Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:05 am

Hey, thanks Milos...and welcome! Come around more often in the future!
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Re: Advanced Handgun Course

Postby Milos on Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:24 pm

Just joined.Will scout out the site.Come on out and take the course-I am sure it will be fun.
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Re: Advanced Handgun Course

Postby David on Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:11 pm

It looks like a pretty good organization. They certainly have been around for a while, and have a huge array of offerings. I wish civilians could take some of the law enforcement classes.

I noticed in their description for their highest level civilian handgun course:

Because of the nature of this course of instruction few other courses will qualify for attendance. Please call for approval, documentation must be supplied prior to admittance to this course.
Review of levels 1 and 2. this is an aggressive handgun course and participants will learn how to shoot moving targets, tactical magazine changes, and planning home defense. Course of fire will require shooting moving targets, use of cover, movement from cover to cover, shoot and no shoot discretionary fire, and hostile environment assessment, all in the same course of fire. Steel, knock down and “kill steel” targets are utilized on this course as well. Participants will spend a minimum of classroom time and extensive time will be spent on range in live fire exercises.


All of that stuff is taught (and taught seriously, not just touched upon) in the introductory courses at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Storm Mountain, Blackwater, and (yes, even) Front Site. Once you finish those intro courses, the next courses consist mainly of simulators where you get concentrated, one-on-one critique through shoot houses and the like. They assume you already know all the physical skills, and don't go over such things as tactical reloads and moving targets unless you appear to need it.

For example, Gunsite's highest pistol class is Advanced Tactical Problems. They teach you no physical skills whatsoever. It's all about problem solving, and using your brain. 100% of the course is in the houses, none of it is on the square range, and much of it is using simunitions against instructors. A passing exercise is typically one in which you never even fire your weapon.

I'm not trying to be a snob at all. My only point here is that A&S seems like a great training organization, and I hope they plan to offer higher-level courses for civilians in the future, since they seem to be a lot more qualified to teach than most organizations we have access to locally. Based solely on the description, their civilian classes look like mostly review for, say, a seasoned IDPA or IPSC shooter. Not saying that you wouldn't learn anything, just that it doesn't seem all that advanced for their highest level class.
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Re: Advanced Handgun Course

Postby Einthoven's Triangle on Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:28 am

Defensive Edge is great place to get and refine gunfighting skills locally. Greg Sullivan is an outstanding instructor. wwwslr15.com for class information. The problem is that most people do not want to pay for training; they just want to talk about it. Most people on this board and the other board only talk about gunfighting; they do not get training it. There are is a lot to learn beyond having a piece of paper that says you P2C. The simple fact is you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make them drink. Some people flush with funds can travel and attend well known classes....although we have had Taylor, Farnum, Suarez, and Pincus with courses in state at reasonable costs. Some offerings of Ayoob's Stress Fire programs. We just have too many keyboard commando's! TALK TALK TALK.......get out and do it!
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Re: Advanced Handgun Course

Postby Duane J on Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:10 am

Einthoven's Triangle wrote:Defensive Edge is great place to get and refine gunfighting skills locally. Greg Sullivan is an outstanding instructor. wwwslr15.com for class information. The problem is that most people do not want to pay for training; they just want to talk about it. Most people on this board and the other board only talk about gunfighting; they do not get training it. There are is a lot to learn beyond having a piece of paper that says you P2C. The simple fact is you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make them drink. Some people flush with funds can travel and attend well known classes....although we have had Taylor, Farnum, Suarez, and Pincus with courses in state at reasonable costs. Some offerings of Ayoob's Stress Fire programs. We just have too many keyboard commando's! TALK TALK TALK.......get out and do it!


gone out, done it. post something constructive troll.
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Re: Advanced Handgun Course

Postby nyffman on Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:52 am

The problem is that most people do not want to pay for training; they just want to talk about it.
I don't think he was refering to any specific individual. Look around, you are only one of 486. What's your point? I would suggest taking your own advice.
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Re: Advanced Handgun Course

Postby Einthoven's Triangle on Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:05 pm

Look you Duane you go get life! Quit trolling for illegal activities... perhaps you are a BATFE agent setting up sting to get someone to illegally mfg ammo cause you are cheap sob!
Duane J wrote:
Einthoven's Triangle wrote:Defensive Edge is great place to get and refine gunfighting skills locally. Greg Sullivan is an outstanding instructor. wwwslr15.com for class information. The problem is that most people do not want to pay for training; they just want to talk about it. Most people on this board and the other board only talk about gunfighting; they do not get training it. There are is a lot to learn beyond having a piece of paper that says you P2C. The simple fact is you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make them drink. Some people flush with funds can travel and attend well known classes....although we have had Taylor, Farnum, Suarez, and Pincus with courses in state at reasonable costs. Some offerings of Ayoob's Stress Fire programs. We just have too many keyboard commando's! TALK TALK TALK.......get out and do it!


gone out, done it. post something constructive troll.
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Re: Advanced Handgun Course

Postby Einthoven's Triangle on Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:07 pm

My post was constructive. I pointed a reliable local vendor. If do not want to use his classes so be it! But, aside from that who died and left you in charge!
Duane J wrote:
Einthoven's Triangle wrote:Defensive Edge is great place to get and refine gunfighting skills locally. Greg Sullivan is an outstanding instructor. wwwslr15.com for class information. The problem is that most people do not want to pay for training; they just want to talk about it. Most people on this board and the other board only talk about gunfighting; they do not get training it. There are is a lot to learn beyond having a piece of paper that says you P2C. The simple fact is you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make them drink. Some people flush with funds can travel and attend well known classes....although we have had Taylor, Farnum, Suarez, and Pincus with courses in state at reasonable costs. Some offerings of Ayoob's Stress Fire programs. We just have too many keyboard commando's! TALK TALK TALK.......get out and do it!


gone out, done it. post something constructive troll.
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Re: Advanced Handgun Course

Postby Duane J on Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:11 pm

Einthoven's Triangle wrote:My post was constructive. I pointed a reliable local vendor. If do not want to use his classes so be it! But, aside from that who died and left you in charge!


did you miss the fact that this thread was about http://www.aandstraining.com

i can say again, post something constructive. i'm quite familiar with defensive edge, and recommend them often, but this thread was on a different topic.
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Re: Advanced Handgun Course

Postby Einthoven's Triangle on Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:17 pm

Let's review facts:
Most local P2C courses are lecture and book based, and with very little range time other then a quick check to say it was done. There is no assurance (nor is it required by the law) of accuracy or competence of gun handling skills of student. The class is basically you come you sit you learn then just shoot to demo basic gun safety! All one has to do is be at Bill's or BPR when they are herded through like cattle! Very few vendors....ie Don L offer advanced classes where actual live fire from the holster is permited! To get training you have look at other options.....Bill's has some advanced courses.... other then that...well you have Defensive Edge and people who go the extra mile to host the big names.......that is where street saavy instruction comes into play. Because by God, when you walk out in the street the freaking book goes out the door. There is no time to consult some book, either it is a reflex or it is not....

I do not know but paying upwards of 175 bucks plus quick trip to the range.....that is an awful lot of money for little hands on......

I know people that have been to big name schools, and in my estimation shooting is a perishable skill. Not something just do once and call it good!
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Re: Advanced Handgun Course

Postby Duane J on Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:27 pm

Einthoven's Triangle wrote:Let's review facts:
Most local P2C courses are lecture and book based, and with very little range time other then a quick check to say it was done. There is no assurance (nor is it required by the law) of accuracy or competence of gun handling skills of student. The class is basically you come you sit you learn then just shoot to demo basic gun safety! All one has to do is be at Bill's or BPR when they are herded through like cattle! Very few vendors....ie Don L offer advanced classes where actual live fire from the holster is permited! To get training you have look at other options.....Bill's has some advanced courses.... other then that...well you have Defensive Edge and people who go the extra mile to host the big names.......that is where street saavy instruction comes into play. Because by God, when you walk out in the street the freaking book goes out the door. There is no time to consult some book, either it is a reflex or it is not....

I do not know but paying upwards of 175 bucks plus quick trip to the range.....that is an awful lot of money for little hands on......

I know people that have been to big name schools, and in my estimation shooting is a perishable skill. Not something just do once and call it good!


you make some good points. and you are right, it is a perishable skill. but so as you know, i'm one of those people that goes the extra mile to host the big names. dig up my website for links to register for the next combat focus class. not only do i host some, but i teach advanced classes on my own as well, firing from the holster. i'm behind getting more training, regular training, and advanced training for everyone. make no mistake, i know first hand about how the body reacts when the leads in the air. i can't, however, make insults to those that don't train. i'm happy to share my opinions in a constructive manner though.

and please, don't denigrate the permit instructors that follow the letter of the law. they are doing their job, and doing it properly.
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Re: Advanced Handgun Course

Postby princewally on Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:35 pm

Of course, since less than 0.9% of DGUs involve pulling a trigger*, the main component of any permit to carry class should be pulling the trigger, instead of the legal work and safety.




*National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of Justice Statistics, BATF estimates on handgun supply.
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