Hypocrisy at the highest level.

[JJ]

3. The only thing mentioned that I believe would have any chance of slightly curving gun violence would be universal background checks, which I would support as a life NRA member. Although I stand to profit from this measure, so my opinion is sort of skewed

Wouldn't this be the basis for full blown registration? For the law to be even remotely enforceable, you would have to have some sort of registration.

[45Badger]

Why even have a PTC?! ... if, at any point, it might otherwise be invalid?!

I'm saying you could do things that get you in trouble and invalidate your own permit. I'm not saying there are masses of people holding invalid permits. I have NO idea what the statistics are, I am just saying I wouldn't mind that one step IF it kept private sales, and nothing was recorded like "rugersol purchased gunX on x/x/2013 with serial #xxxxxxx".

I understand.

My point is, by requiring a PTC, 99.9% of yer buyers are legit! ... far moreso than anyone with no PTC, right?!

If yer willin' to concede somethin', how 'bout we start with that?!

As it sets, today (and fer the couple years I've been around here), fer pistols/AR's, private sellers on this board ALWAYS require DL & PTC/PTP!

If the law were to change, where that would also be required for ANY firearm, how many law-abiding folks do ya suppose, would break that law? ... knowing, that at any point, any such buyer could most easily otherwise be an ATF agent?!

I'm not willing to concede that. Especially when I live in a free (less governed and regulated by bliss-ninnies) state. You guys are so damned grateful because we have a right to carry with hoops to jump through. Many places have a PTC system where you show up, fill out form, wait a couple weeks, it's in the mail. Not the waste/drain of time and money we have here. Pay to get "instructed" and then pay for 5 years, and then pay again to get "re-instructed" and then pay again to get renewed. I understand it's the price you guys had to pay to get it done. But don't delude yourself into thinking this is "normal" or that the antis are going to settle for "universal background checks". It is the beginning of registration. In PA long guns can be sold privately. Handguns must go through FFL and use PICs system. State police run approvals and is not allowed (by statute) to maintain serial number and buyer information. Guess what? They do.

Do not concede the point.

If i want to sell or buy a gun to or from one of you, it's our business. Adding an ffl transfer only increases the price of the gun and adds an hours worth of driving and filling out paperwork. Don't let it happen.

As it sets, today (and fer the couple years I've been around here), fer pistols/AR's, private sellers on this board ALWAYS require DL & PTC/PTP!

I do not. The funny thing is lots of people want to show me their permit like it's some badge of honor or secret handshake. Get real. It's another bureaucratic piece of paper that costs you money.

[jdege]

3. The only thing mentioned that I believe would have any chance of slightly curving gun violence would be universal background checks, which I would support as a life NRA member.

I will absolutely oppose universal background checks, if they involve reporting the serial number of the firearm being transferred to any level of government.

As it stands now, FFL's don't report any serial numbers. I am assuming that wouldn't change.

The dealer records the serial number on the 4473, and records the instant check number on the 4473, and the feds have the authority to demand the 4473.

I don't object to the 4473s, currently, because they don't - and the government knows that they don't - track all legal firearms transactions. So simple possession of a firearm, absent supporting documentation, cannot be presumed to be a crime.

When every legal firearms transaction does generate a paper trail, there will be such a presumption, however unfounded, and we will see innocent people jailed because the government screwed up the paperwork. (Currently, this is happening only for class III owners, but universal background checks will put all gun owners at risk.)

I see it as absolutely essential that the government never be allowed to convince itself that it knows who owns every legal gun.

[grousemaster]

3. The only thing mentioned that I believe would have any chance of slightly curving gun violence would be universal background checks, which I would support as a life NRA member. Although I stand to profit from this measure, so my opinion is sort of skewed

Wouldn't this be the basis for full blown registration? For the law to be even remotely enforceable, you would have to have some sort of registration.

I think you're right, otherwise it would be unenforceable. I think requiring a private party have permits would be more acceptable.....

[JJ]

3. The only thing mentioned that I believe would have any chance of slightly curving gun violence would be universal background checks, which I would support as a life NRA member. Although I stand to profit from this measure, so my opinion is sort of skewed

Wouldn't this be the basis for full blown registration? For the law to be even remotely enforceable, you would have to have some sort of registration.

I think you're right, otherwise it would be unenforceable. I think requiring a private party have permits would be more acceptable.....

And how hard would it be to falsify a laminated card? It's a bad idea, don't let financial gain blind you.

[45Badger]

3. The only thing mentioned that I believe would have any chance of slightly curving gun violence would be universal background checks, which I would support as a life NRA member. Although I stand to profit from this measure, so my opinion is sort of skewed

Wouldn't this be the basis for full blown registration? For the law to be even remotely enforceable, you would have to have some sort of registration.

I think you're right, otherwise it would be unenforceable. I think requiring a private party have permits would be more acceptable.....

Ugh. Illinois FOID card hell

[george]

I for see even larger problems with the idea of all sales going threw a FFL, remember the early 90's when the Clinton bunch had over
50% off all FFL's were refused renewal. How about that again, add to that high fees and hard to find FFL's.
Next make all firearms logged in must have a check to log out, what if the sale is denied, now lets make the return require a
4473 jest to get the firearm back. What if the original owner fore some reason is denied, OH CRAP, now its all on a 4473!!
Give a little and a Little more later and a bit more after that.

[xd ED]

Ugh. Illinois FOID card hell

[danoinmn]

Blah blah

[FJ540]

I just can't understand how this nation got into this mess...

The libtards feel they can create a better world by preventing people from doing/owning things that they find objectionable.

The religious right has been doing the same thing, but trying to prevent people from doing different things they find objectionable.

What we need is a libertarian uprising, where people only complain when others do things TO THEM that they find objectionable.

Our two party system is really one party with different ideas of what shouldn't be allowed.

[Heffay]

The libtards feel they can create a better world by preventing people from doing/owning things that they find objectionable.

The religious right has been doing the same thing, but trying to prevent people from doing different things they find objectionable.

What we need is a libertarian uprising, where people only complain when others do things TO THEM that they find objectionable.

Our two party system is really one party with different ideas of what shouldn't be allowed.

What we *need* is the republican party to become the libertarian party, like they originally were. Beat down the Tea Party jackoffs (aka Moral Majority 2.0 ) and focus on what you said: Personal liberties and budgets.

A good Republican is someone who is both a member of the NRA and ACLU.

[Rip Van Winkle]

What we need in this country is an educated electorate which values the original intent of the Constitution.

[Heffay]

What we need in this country is an educated electorate which values the original intent of the Constitution.

How do you propose making that happen?

[Jeff Bergquist]

What we *need* is the republican party to become the libertarian party, like they originally were.

I think you're mistaken there. The republicans espoused some libertarian ideas, being anti slavery, but a major part of the original platform was strong central banking and trade protectionism. Then of course there's the other lasting result of the Lincoln presidency, the ascendancy of the federal government, and the often unconstitutional extension of its powers.

[Rip Van Winkle]

What we need in this country is an educated electorate which values the original intent of the Constitution.

How do you propose making that happen?

It probably isn't possible anymore, but neither is changing either political party without doing it.