FAIL

[goalie]

Were you equally offended by the lockdown and paramilitary "invasion" of law enforcement, Federal agents, and active duty military in response to the 35W bridge collapse?

Really? That's your analogy? A lot of us from the cities hospitals went to help out on our own time and dime. I didn't see anyone pointing firearms at people. Not one.

I mean, the whole analogy sucks, but jeez, REALLY?!?!?!

[CarryCauseICan]

Right or wrong, justified by the situation or not, I still will have an issue of someone, anyone pointing a loaded firearm at me! Sorry, it just goes against everything we are taught about safety. Would I be Butt Hurt about it? Yes! Could I do anything about it? Probably Not!

[jshuberg]

Were you equally offended by the lockdown and paramilitary "invasion" of law enforcement, Federal agents, and active duty military in response to the 35W bridge collapse?

Really? That's your analogy? A lot of us from the cities hospitals went to help out on our own time and dime. I didn't see anyone pointing firearms at people. Not one.

I mean, the whole analogy sucks, but jeez, REALLY?!?!?!

You just kinda made my point. It's not that that an "invasion" of law enforcement bothers people, it's when they're hunting a bad guy, and an innocent bystander gets caught up in it, and has the **** scared out of them. New rule: don't interfere with or startle cops while they're hunting a bad guy, there's a strong likelihood they're going to react as if you could be a bad guy, until it's determined you're not. This might result in having a gun pointed at you, which is never going to be a good thing. Remember what happened to those AP photographers in Iraq that were hiding behind a building, leaned out and pointed a really long telegraphic lens at a helo? They got blown all to hell, because they looked and acted like the bad guys. When there's cops in front of your house looking for a bad guy, stay away from your windows, and don't point anything at them. Behave in a way that differentiates you from the bad guy as much as possible, and let them do their job. The life they save might be yours or a loved ones.

While that picture does invoke an emotional response, without context we can't infer what may have actually happened. It's possible that the cop was startled by the person in the window and reacted just as the picture was snapped. How long did it take the cop top lower his weapon? We don't know, he could have brought his weapon up, saw that it wasn't the person he was looking for, and immediately lowered his weapon. You just simply can't determine if his actions were appropriate to the situation from the photo. Unless he held his weapon on the person for an extended period of time, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he probably reacted appropriately, and in accordance with his training.

I do have a problem with a city wide lockdown. Boston should have reacted the way that LA did when that ex-cop went bonkers - increase a law enforcement presence, and advise caution, but allow people to continue with their everyday lives. Once they found the guy, maybe close off a couple blocks surrounding the area, but the whole city was excessive, and I doubt an order for a city wide lockdown would be lawful, or pass constitutional muster. I don't believe that the Governor declared martial law, which is the civilian government surrendering control and power to the military.

[jshuberg]

Sorry, it just goes against everything we are taught about safety.

Yes, never pointing a firearm at something you don't want to destroy is one of the main rules for firearms safety. However, don't get so hung up on this concept that you actually program yourself against pointing a gun at someone under any circumstance. If your life is threatened, you want to get your gun up on that threat, and shoot until it's gone.

For example, you can put a blue gun in someones hand during training, and tell them to react as if it were a real gun. Several minutes later, while you're discussing something else, have someone else barge in the room with a plastic knife and charge him while yelling that he's going to kill him. Whats surprising is that more novice shooters will bring the blue gun up and point it at the bad guy than experienced civilian shooters do. It's well documented that many cops have been killed because they never brought their gun up on the bad guy, even though they had the opportunity to and knew their life was in danger. People can train for "safety" to the point where they actually become incapable of pointing a gun at someone during that critical moment in time where your conscious mind shuts off and procedural memory kicks in. A person who carries a firearm for self defense actually needs to train for the circumstances when it's necessary to bring that gun up on an actual real living human being. Presuming that you'll do so if necessary in spite of all of your training and safety habits to the contrary is a pretty big presumption.

[NMRMN]

Sorry, it just goes against everything we are taught about safety.

Yes, never pointing a firearm at something you don't want to destroy is one of the main rules for firearms safety. However, don't get so hung up on this concept that you actually program yourself against pointing a gun at someone under any circumstance. If your life is threatened, you want to get your gun up on that threat, and shoot until it's gone.

For example, you can put a blue gun in someones hand during training, and tell them to react as if it were a real gun. Several minutes later, while you're discussing something else, have someone else barge in the room with a plastic knife and charge him while yelling that he's going to kill him. Whats surprising is that more novice shooters will bring the blue gun up and point it at the bad guy than experienced civilian shooters do. It's well documented that many cops have been killed because they never brought their gun up on the bad guy, even though they had the opportunity to and knew their life was in danger. People can train for "safety" to the point where they actually become incapable of pointing a gun at someone during that critical moment in time where your conscious mind shuts off and procedural memory kicks in. A person who carries a firearm for self defense actually needs to train for the circumstances when it's necessary to bring that gun up on an actual real living human being. Presuming that you'll do so if necessary in spite of all of your training and safety habits to the contrary is a pretty big presumption.

Interesting. Maybe I will have to take your class

This sniper must be well trained

[jshuberg]

Interesting. Maybe I will have to take your class

Thanks but at the moment I don't really do "traditional" type classes that other people do - although I've been thinking about it again recently. There are plenty of organizations around town that offer outstanding training, but I've kind of fallen into a niche area that other people don't do as much. What I've gotten into is taking on one or two people at a time, and work with them for a couple hours a week for a 3-4 month period of time. It's really rewarding for me to watch someone as they discover that they are able to shoot well. I've got 2 guys I'm working with right now, and one just started so I'm at my limit at the moment. I know it's a strange way to do things, but it's what fits me the best.

[tman]

I may have said this before in this thread, but, cops point guns at people A LOT, and no one gets shot.


Sent from my iPhone using that app which shall not be named.

[goalie]

I may have said this before in this thread, but, cops point guns at people A LOT, and no one gets shot.

True, but you usually point that at people for a reason, not simply because you are rolling down the street in your armored vehicle looking for one dumbass in a city of 800K and someone **GASP** looked out the window to see WTF was going on with the armored vehicles and army rolling through.

[XDM45]

I may have said this before in this thread, but, cops point guns at people A LOT, and no one gets shot.

True, but you usually point that at people for a reason, not simply because you are rolling down the street in your armored vehicle looking for one dumbass in a city of 800K and someone **GASP** looked out the window to see WTF was going on with the armored vehicles and army rolling through.

Man..... you NEED to be a cop. LE could really use your psychic ability to know 100% for certain who is a threat or not just by looking at them.

If you were a cop and you were in that scenario/situation, and you saw someone go up to the window and look out, would you automatically know they are a threat or not? I would assume the threat potential is there and assess it properly, taking action accordingly. Remember the cop that went rouge in LA recently? He too was only one man, but trained in LE's tactics. I don't agree with the lockdown of the entire city, of course not, but I agree with everyone (including cops') right to protect themselves.

In a previous business life, I traveled all over the US with a group of people, and while I was cordial, I trusted no one outside of that group.My attitude was "I don't know you. I don't want to know you. You aren't part of my tribe. eff off and stay away. You have no business approaching me or mine unless I know you have certain business with me/us. If that's the case, conduct it and be gone. I don't trust you until you can prove otherwise, and unfortunately for you, we won't be in town long enough for you to do that." I assumed everyone and everything was and is a threat until proven otherwise, but as mentioned, we won't be around long enough for them to do that.

Paranoid? No. Protective of me and mine at all costs.

I'm still that way when I travel, I'm still that way now, but I've lessened it a bit when I'm on my home turf.

[NMRMN]

Thanks for the mini biography XDM -- you are very tactical and hardcore.

now take this aspect of the conversation over here: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=42697

[Erud]

I may have said this before in this thread, but, cops point guns at people A LOT, and no one gets shot.

True, but you usually point that at people for a reason, not simply because you are rolling down the street in your armored vehicle looking for one dumbass in a city of 800K and someone **GASP** looked out the window to see WTF was going on with the armored vehicles and army rolling through.

Man..... you NEED to be a cop. LE could really use your psychic ability to know 100% for certain who is a threat or not just by looking at them.

If you were a cop and you were in that scenario/situation, and you saw someone go up to the window and look out, would you automatically know they are a threat or not? I would assume the threat potential is there and assess it properly, taking action accordingly. Remember the cop that went rouge in LA recently? He too was only one man, but trained in LE's tactics. I don't agree with the lockdown of the entire city, of course not, but I agree with everyone (including cops') right to protect themselves.

In a previous business life, I traveled all over the US with a group of people, and while I was cordial, I trusted no one outside of that group.My attitude was "I don't know you. I don't want to know you. You aren't part of my tribe. eff off and stay away. You have no business approaching me or mine unless I know you have certain business with me/us. If that's the case, conduct it and be gone. I don't trust you until you can prove otherwise, and unfortunately for you, we won't be in town long enough for you to do that." I assumed everyone and everything was and is a threat until proven otherwise, but as mentioned, we won't be around long enough for them to do that.

Paranoid? No. Protective of me and mine at all costs.

I'm still that way when I travel, I'm still that way now, but I've lessened it a bit when I'm on my home turf.

Please.

Just.

Stop.

[goalie]

I may have said this before in this thread, but, cops point guns at people A LOT, and no one gets shot.

True, but you usually point that at people for a reason, not simply because you are rolling down the street in your armored vehicle looking for one dumbass in a city of 800K and someone **GASP** looked out the window to see WTF was going on with the armored vehicles and army rolling through.

Man..... you NEED to be a cop. LE could really use your psychic ability to know 100% for certain who is a threat or not just by looking at them.

If you were a cop and you were in that scenario/situation, and you saw someone go up to the window and look out, would you automatically know they are a threat or not? I would assume the threat potential is there and assess it properly, taking action accordingly. Remember the cop that went rouge in LA recently? He too was only one man, but trained in LE's tactics. I don't agree with the lockdown of the entire city, of course not, but I agree with everyone (including cops') right to protect themselves.

In a previous business life, I traveled all over the US with a group of people, and while I was cordial, I trusted no one outside of that group.My attitude was "I don't know you. I don't want to know you. You aren't part of my tribe. eff off and stay away. You have no business approaching me or mine unless I know you have certain business with me/us. If that's the case, conduct it and be gone. I don't trust you until you can prove otherwise, and unfortunately for you, we won't be in town long enough for you to do that." I assumed everyone and everything was and is a threat until proven otherwise, but as mentioned, we won't be around long enough for them to do that.

Paranoid? No. Protective of me and mine at all costs.

I'm still that way when I travel, I'm still that way now, but I've lessened it a bit when I'm on my home turf.

I am in awe of your experience. My trigger-time was all military, but I still didn't point a loaded rifle at EVERYONE in a window when we got to Kuwait City.....



I would point out that driving around a big city pointing loaded rifles at everyone isn't a way to win the hearts and minds. In fact, it's a damn good way to lose them.

X a billion if you're a cop and not military.

[tazdevil]

I may have said this before in this thread, but, cops point guns at people A LOT, and no one gets shot.

True, but you usually point that at people for a reason, not simply because you are rolling down the street in your armored vehicle looking for one dumbass in a city of 800K and someone **GASP** looked out the window to see WTF was going on with the armored vehicles and army rolling through.

What makes me curious about that photo is what if the guy taking the picture also had a sidearm holstered, or a rifle or shotgun slung around do to their fear of potentially needing to protect themselves from the terrorist. Would the MP officer (it does say Military police on the side of the Humvee) have shot, or forcibly entered the house and detained the individual? I would like to hear from both sides on this one, as I could see some of us doing exactly that.

[White Horseradish]

Yes, a gun can defeat a determined terrorist with a bomb--what do you think the police are carrying?

Far more than guns.

Specifically, in terms of stuff useful against bombers, they have manpower, communication, and information.

[NMRMN]

Yes, a gun can defeat a determined terrorist with a bomb--what do you think the police are carrying?

Far more than guns.

Specifically, in terms of stuff useful against bombers, they have manpower, communication, and information.

True -- and training... However, the argument is not that police aren't better equipped to handle these sorts of threats. It is that the lock-down response was a complete failure from a tactical, political and legal perspective.