Mobilization to Override Governor Dayton's Veto

[Heretical1]

Heretical1, you can type discredited all you want, but nothing you've posted has done anything to support that.

Now, I could be wrong,

But I doubt it.

That pretty much sums up the entire legislative process on the bill in question doesn't it? And that effort has so far proven futile, hasn't it? And it's highly probable that you won't get another chance at running that bill up the legislative flag pole until after the next election, isn't it?

So tell me something... have you got a better analysis of how this abysmal lobbying and legislative effort failed, and what has to be changed the next time, and if so, BRING IT. How do you view the political environment and the predilections of your opposition going forward?

So far you haven't made a cogent argument about anything, and you've absolutely failed to impugn the validity of my analysis by reference to anything empirical or otherwise objective. So until you can, you stop trying to bully and shout down people who can, and who have a right to defend themselves against the specious, irrational, hate-mongering epithets directed at the VERY LOYAL opposition.

DISCREDITED!! -->> Norsesmithy

P.S.: Please stop reading my posts. They're only likely to further aggravate your histrionic reactions.

[Heretical1]

So tell me something... have you got a better analysis of how this abysmal lobbying and legislative effort failed, and what has to be changed the next time, and if so, BRING IT. How do you view the political environment and the predilections of your opposition going forward?

So far you haven't made a cogent argument about anything...

Norsesmithy, you might want to start here -->> Tell Governor Dayton to sign the Stand Your Ground bill

Postby whiteox on Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:57 pm

steve4102 wrote:

Thunder71 wrote:Well, how long before an override?

Sent using Tapatalk on Android



It will never come up! Not enough to start!

BTW, I would like to thank all of you that voted for the third party candidate Tom Horner.



Actually, I blame the people who voted for Emmer in the primary. Republicans put up a subpar candidate in what had to have been one of the best electoral opportunity in the last decade for a republican governor. Elections have consequences. [Emphasis added.]

Putting up the guy who tosses out the most red meat for party diehards may be satisfying, but if your candidate is watching the inauguration on tv? That makes the next four years suck.

I don't blame Dayton for this. He acted according to his principles. [Emphasis added.] It's not like he campaigned on getting this passed and then went back on his word. He actually used the term cop-killer bullets while campaigning for pete's sake.

Maybe take this into account when it comes time to pick a gubernatorial candidate.



Norsesmithy: Here's another example that you might find edifying -->> Re: Tell Governor Dayton to sign the Stand Your Ground bill

Postby JK-linux on Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:18 pm
It won't come up again in an election year. [Emphasis added.] The (R)'s get to say "Against all odds, we tried", and the (D)'s get to say "Yea, we stopped it". All the politicians get their own voter base approval, and they can move on and dodge this one until after November or later. People who care about this topic aren't going to suddenly switch parties based on the outcome. I know I wouldn't have voted Dayton next time around if he had signed it. The liberal chick at work isn't going to suddenly vote (R) next time if the (R)'s somehow voted against it. There are no voters on either side to win or lose regardless of the outcome as long as it is run through the system and everyone acts as expected.

[infidel]

This thread is an education on how warped education is.

Discredited.

[Heretical1]

This thread is an education on how warped education is.

Discredited.

Forrest Gump: "Mama says, 'Stupid is as stupid does.'" --->>

[Norsesmithy]

Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

I love how many emphasis signals you use.

EVERYTHING you type is super important.

Or rather, nothing is.

As far as how this failed, it's fairly obvious, and I won't belabor your small mind with the reading of it, but the thing of it is, it was something that needed trying. We needed to try to convince Dayton to set aside his principles to fulfill his promises (though seldom will any man do so), and we needed to try to drum up a broad base of bipartisan support, acknowledging that many of the Reps and Senators with the D after their name were, like the Governor, opposed to the legislation on principle. The take away, however, is that we came VERY close to succeeding, if not by convincing the Governor to change his mine, then in the winning of bipartisan support.

As far as what we could have done to be more successful, I think that we, meaning the lobbyists who supported the bill, needed to do a better job of identifying the legislators oppose who would listen to reason, and then do a better job of motivating persons who live in their districts to contact them, and to do so further in advance of the voting.

After all, a legislator is going to be much more influenced by a constituent of theirs than by a person from another constituency who cold calls them.

But the session is not over. The lobbyists on our side need to identify the possible swing votes, connect with willing volunteers from those districts, and start applying pressure.

But I'm sure that copy/pasting other people's mildly relevant posts from earlier in the thread or from other threads and declaring victory is important too, so keep up the good work.

[Heretical1]

Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Listen, you pejorative ass, first retract the above fabricated quote, which only reasonable people can infer from the context of your tedious harangue was intended in an untoward and disparaging manner.

Take a lesson from history you pompous jerk, e.g., The Army-McCarthy Hearings:

McCarthy, accusing Welch of filibustering the hearing and baiting Cohn, dismissed Welch's dissertation and casually resumed his attack on Fisher, at which point Welch angrily cut him short:

"Senator, may we not drop this? We know he belonged to the Lawyer's Guild...Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator; you've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

Infuriated by McCarthy's actions, Welch excluded himself from the remainder of the hearings with a parting shot to McCarthy: "You have seen fit to bring it [the Fisher/NLG affair] out, and if there is a God in heaven, it will do neither you nor your cause any good!" After Welch deferred to Chairman Mundt to call the next witness, the gallery burst into applause.

Secondly, ex post facto excuses don't qualify as:

So tell me something... have you got a better analysis of how this abysmal lobbying and legislative effort failed, and what has to be changed the next time, and if so, BRING IT.

but the thing of it is, it was something that needed trying. We needed to try to convince Dayton to set aside his principles to fulfill his promises (though seldom will any man do so), and we needed to try to drum up a broad base of bipartisan support, acknowledging that many of the Reps and Senators with the D after their name were, like the Governor, opposed to the legislation on principle. [Emphasis added.]

So... how's that hopey-changey thing goin' for ya? I can almost hear your hand-wringing, and it's making me cringe.

The take away, however, is that we came VERY close to succeeding, if not by convincing the Governor to change his mine, then in the winning of bipartisan support.

This statement is absolutely fatuous. Bipartisan support my *ss. Whose re-election campaigns got greased? The Republican caucus sent up a bill that they knew they didn't have enough votes for a veto override. This is an undisputed fact, which has been widely reported by both Reuters and the AP. Purely and simply it was a matter of hubris and overreach, just like the character of the bill itself, which seems to have become an endemic character defect throughout the national gun-nut caucus. Unless you've got some more credible sourcing... ***AAAACCCKKK*** DISCREDITED.

Regardless, since when did experience doing it wrong make it valuable, particularly since hubris blinded the proponents of this bill from being a little more introspective? A simple vote count would have alerted a novice (who was honest with themselves) that they didn't have a veto override before they sent the bill up to the Governor, and that they needed to do some polling and focus-grouping to find the festering pockets of dissent in the opposition in order to break up their coalition of resistance, and get the votes they needed. Hey, I'm really sorry that all their hard work turned out to be futile, and that they sent a bill up for a veto that they knew they didn't have the votes to override. Unfortunately, however, the issue here is quite starkly, hubris and overreach, and no amount of hours logged in slogging through the legislative process bears relevance to that defect.

Forrest Gump: "Mama says, 'Stupid is as stupid does.'"

As far as what we could have done to be more successful, I think that we, meaning the lobbyists who supported the bill, needed to do a better job of identifying the legislators oppose who would listen to reason, and then do a better job of motivating persons who live in their districts to contact them, and to do so further in advance of the voting. [Emphasis added.]

OMG, ply me with abstruse, impenetrably-subjective, vague, unintelligible adjectives. Reasonableness? You think my wife is going ... scratch that... you think I'm going to find it reasonable for you to tell me that I should allow some untrained, unqualified, uneducated car wash attendant from Bum-f**K Idaho to carry concealed guns around my kids?! Moreover, don't you have the cart before the horse here? Shouldn't the bill's proponents have made a convincing case to the opposition that they would lose their constituent's support if they opposed the bill, and that they'd come off looking like power mongering police statists? Without getting their constituents on board, you're only indulging in folly.

After all, a legislator is going to be much more influenced by a constituent of theirs than by a person from another constituency who cold calls them.

BINGO!! So why didn't you focus on this?! And what exactly are you proposing that was supposed to win the hearts and minds of these constituents? Tell me... what's the surefire argument that's going to convince an Edina/Minnetonka/Deep Haven/Excelsior soccer mom that she should see the error of her ways and capitulate to madness of this bill in its present form? This is a gaping hole in your excuse, and you really should consider not digging any further.

But the session is not over. The lobbyists on our side need to identify the possible swing votes, connect with willing volunteers from those districts, and start applying pressure.

What swing vote? Your "Slut-Shamer"-in-Chief called my daughter a slut!! And we're supposed to suck that up and allow untrained, unqualified BOZOS to carry concealed weapons around our kids?! HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND?!! AND YOU WANT US TO BE "REASONABLE"?! And now you want to "pressure" us? What, a good water-boarding session at Bagram AFB? WE THINK YOU'RE MEGALOMANIACAL AND DANGEROUS!! START CONNECTING THE DOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I'm sure that copy/pasting other people's mildly relevant posts from earlier in the thread or from other threads and declaring victory is important too, so keep up the good work.

Which just goes to show you how impetuous you were to shoot your big, histrionically reactionary mouth off before studying the more thoughtful perspectives of your own caucus, you snide, loopy, b*llsh*t artist.

DIMISSED!!

[Dick Unger]

She has no reason to continue her fight except to discredit those that oppose Obama. Her Healthcare fight ended with Obama Care. She has nothing left to fight for, Obama has given it to her already, it's over. Her goal now is to discredit not to accomplish.

Please reread my last post. I edited it to provide more clarity about what the issue on this topic is. If you want to argue about Sandra Fluke's relevance to broader national politics, I'm sure there is a message board somewhere that will happily accommodate your views.

You came here only to convince us that GGGGGoofy's Veto was a good Veto because the Republican's that wrote it screwed up. You even tried to tie Goofy's veto to Talk Radio and Rush and the Conservative voters. Your goal is no different than Ms Flucks, Left Wing Socialist Troll.

Well Steve, as long as we have gun supporters that so proudly proclaim their neo-con "principals" and use word like "left wing" and "socialist" as negative adjectives,we won't win. About 70% of us Minnesotans don't give a damn about how proud you are to be what passes for "conservative" today. And folks like Dayton are completely offended by it. (Ms Fluke came to as part of a left wing plan to be the subject of the Limbaugh show for three days. I suppose Obama called Rush to set that up. Right. See how this nonsense sounds to most of us?)

Some foks need to get off our side, I think.

[infidel]

Dick Unger wrote: Well Steve, as long as we have gun supporters that so proudly proclaim their neo-con "principals" and use word like "left wing" and "socialist" as negative adjectives,we won't win. About 70% of us Minnesotans don't give a damn about how proud you are to be what passes for "conservative" today. And folks like Dayton are completely offended by it. (Ms Fluke came to as part of a left wing plan to be the subject of the Limbaugh show for three days. I suppose Obama called Rush to set that up. Right. See how this nonsense sounds to most of us?)

Some foks need to get off our side, I think.

You are upset when people call you "left wing" and "socialist"? I could see where the truth hurts. You have a problem with accepting what you are, while labeling others things they are not (tea-bagger, neo-con).

Some folks need to get off our side, I think.

[nyffman]

Before he denigrated the "right wingers", Mr, Unger should have considered the question of which party's leadership effectively killed this bill and why. Did they do so out of outrage over some misplaced petty political labeling, or by their conviction that it would have a dangerous effect? Either way, I would say that Mr. Unger is on the wrong side on this and has only himself and fellow left wing travelers to blame for the failure. So, lash out at the rest of us if it makes you feel better but understand that it does nothing to solve the problem. Oh, BTW, numerous polls by Gallup and others have shown consistently, for many years that liberals are outnumbered by conservatives by roughly 2:1. Look it up.

[Dick Unger]

Before he denigrated the "right wingers", Mr, Unger should have considered the question of which party's leadership effectively killed this bill and why. Did they do so out of outrage over some misplaced petty political labeling, or by their conviction that it would have a dangerous effect? Either way, I would say that Mr. Unger is on the wrong side on this and has only himself and fellow left wing travelers to blame for the failure. So, lash out at the rest of us if it makes you feel better but understand that it does nothing to solve the problem. Oh, BTW, numerous polls by Gallup and others have shown consistently, for many years that liberals are outnumbered by conservatives by roughly 2:1. Look it up.

It soesn't matter who is right and who is left. You have to work with what you have, or you just lose. If we wait for an all right wing governemnt, we'll wait forever.

This was an ideal year, because the legislature was more receptive. (OK, more Republican.) But the rancor between the parties is the reason we couldn't turn it this year. The "right wing" these days is a bit different from when I called myself a conservative. The "conservatives" are all statist, and fuill of their own brand of religion, science denial, and darwinian social attitudes, and represent big corporations that constantly screw people over.

Dayton does not respect these folks. So, he obviously needed to be sold and negotiated. He apparently waited 3 days, nothing came forth.

Next year, it'll be harder I'd bet.

[Norsesmithy]

I am velcro shoe wearer, hear me ROAR!

You obviously don't have any idea what you are talking about. There were several Name [D]s in the vote for column. What else is the definition of bipartisan support? I'm still listening.

If we were to follow your recommended course of action, and never propose anything that isn't a sure thing, we'd never get anything done. Now, I made sure to put pressure on my representatives, though the fact that the people who represent me do in fact represent me, at least with regard to this sort of issue means that my efforts were perhaps unnecessary. Did you, do yours?

I can't speak for others, but my efforts were focused on getting supporters for this bill in "contested" districts to contact their representatives. I don't suffer under such a delusion of hubris to actually take credit for success in this area, but I do know that there are at least a bakers dozen friends and relatives of mine in the constituencies that DID swing who made sure to personally call, write actual paper letters, and send Emails to their legislators. Can you say the same?

That addresses all of your coherent and cogent "points".

I will leave you to the nonsequiturs and irrelevancies.

By the way, while it would be lying to say I'm sorry that a short little dismissal instead of a simple "SNIP" in your quote box raises your dander so, I feel that perhaps I should explain, for your edification, why I've done so. You see, it would be wasteful in terms of format to simply extend your quote tree into another post, even if what you actually write was at all worth repeating. The format of my response doesn't require me to use the crutch of chopping up your post into chunks so as to ensure that people understand which of my paragraphs are intended as responses to which sections of your post, because, you know, it's actually literate and coherent. If it weren't for other posts between your post and mine, I wouldn't even bother to quote you.

Hope you're having a pleasant afternoon.

[steve4102]

The "conservatives" are all statist, and fuill of their own brand of religion, science denial, and darwinian social attitudes, and represent big corporations that constantly screw people over.

You gotta quit spending so much time on MPR and MSN.

[jweiss]

There is so much BS in this thread that if it was on the floor I'd have to use a shovel to clean it up. First off, we new Dayton would NOT sign any gun bill because he is anti-gun no matter what he says about hunting and such other drivel that comes out of his mouth. Second I don't have a problem with, as it was put some car wash dude from bum **** Idaho carrying in this state as Ive been to a few of the ranges around here and seen some of the supposedly trained PTC people scare the hell out of me,so thats a wash as far as I'm concerned. Third I called my Rep and senator, both flaming progressive liberals and got NO response other than uhh yea ok what ever, same for the Gov. BOGUS all the way,The elected representatives in this state DO NOT listen to us.

[Heretical1]

I am velcro shoe wearer, hear me ROAR!

You obviously don't have any idea what you are talking about. There were several Name [D]s in the vote for column. What else is the definition of bipartisan support? I'm still listening.

...

I can't speak for others, but my efforts were focused on getting supporters for this bill in "contested" districts to contact their representatives. I don't suffer under such a delusion of hubris to actually take credit for success in this area, but I do know that there are at least a bakers dozen friends and relatives of mine in the constituencies that DID swing who made sure to personally call, write actual paper letters, and send Emails to their legislators. Can you say the same?

...

If you weren't thumping your own chest so hard in vain pride, you would know what bipartisan support really is. It means getting enough votes from the opposition party, not just to pass legislation in the legislature, but to get it enacted into law. The fact that you got some "D"'s to vote your way is meaningless, knowing what Democrats thought of your legislation, generally. You should have known by the posts from your own kind on this message board that the Democratic party as a whole was going to pull the rug out from under your Wild-West fantasy, and that the adults would eventually corral you kiddies; i.e., those of you who were more interested in playing Wyatt Earp than in getting prudent, provident legislation enacted into law. --->>

Re: Tell Governor Dayton to sign the Stand Your Ground bill

Postby steve4102 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:33 pm
Gov Goofy will not sign it.. If it comes to a veto override vote, the Democrats that voted for the Bill will NOT vote to overturn Goofy's Veto. They will change their vote to NO and the Bill will be dead. [Emphasis added.]

But your leadership was blinded by hubris and overreach. Consequently, they negligently disregarded warnings such as this, and don't tell me that steve4102 was the first in your caucus to bring up this point. If Sen. Warren Limmer, who I have known personally since 1980, and with whom I've had protracted interaction with on legislative considerations of organized crime, did not also bring this up, it is, no doubt, because he felt intimidated by the ridiculously stultifying ethos of "group-think"-led decision making in your party's culture.

You can call vote trading, re-election campaign support and CYA operations "bipartisan support" if you want to, but objectively, you got PLAYED... BIG TIME. The Democratic party got what they wanted. Did you?

Real bipartisan support results in bills being enacted into law; not in a humiliating exercise in futile, Kabuki theater, to wit:

Norsesmithy: Here's another example that you might find edifying -->> Re: Tell Governor Dayton to sign the Stand Your Ground bill

Postby JK-linux on Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:18 pm
It won't come up again in an election year. [Emphasis added.] The (R)'s get to say "Against all odds, we tried", and the (D)'s get to say "Yea, we stopped it". All the politicians get their own voter base approval, and they can move on and dodge this one until after November or later. People who care about this topic aren't going to suddenly switch parties based on the outcome. I know I wouldn't have voted Dayton next time around if he had signed it. The liberal chick at work isn't going to suddenly vote (R) next time if the (R)'s somehow voted against it. There are no voters on either side to win or lose regardless of the outcome as long as it is run through the system and everyone acts as expected.

Look, make all the excuses and beat your breast all you f**king want. You got played and you lost. And in states like MN where the independent "swing" vote is of any consequence, you will continue to lose until you switch out the leadership whose vainglorious hubris and overreach sabotages your rights. Mark my words... reasonable, rational people, i.e., those independents who recognize provident leadership, will abandon your "slut-shaming", bullying, rabidly-demagogic, profligate, "shoot-the-moon" kind of reckless tendencies. Conversely, they will support candidates who can best provide for a secure, stable, and civically well-ordered future. That kind of leadership is obviously not you or your kind. Let this fiasco be a wake-up call to all of you, lest like lemmings you run your party off a cliff (a la the Susan G. Komen Foundation), and our self-defense interests right along with it.

Norsesmithy: For the last time, you have been DISMISSED!!

[ttousi]

lets watch the personal attacks folks

Thanks in advance for your co-operation

well that worked well............

not to mention the word filter bypass......for example:

Listen, you pejorative ass

Bipartisan support my *ss

from Bum-f**K Idaho

you snide, loopy, b*llsh*t artist.

heritical 1 while you enjoy your time off you may want to read the forum rules.
Folks continue this discussion in a new thread if you wish since this pissing contest is over