Congress Seeks Answers on Huge DHS Ammo Contracts

[NMRMN]

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/congress/item/14891-congress-seeks-answers-on-huge-homeland-security-ammo-contracts

Despite claims to the contrary, the main question remains unanswered: Under what circumstances does the DHS foresee the need to acquire over 2 billion rounds of ammunition? Please do not muddy this thread with ad-hominem attack, but rather contribute well-sourced and plausible explanation, in particular from the DHS, on the issue of legally binding access to over 2 billion rounds of ammunition. Thank you.

[bensdad]

Under what circumstances does the DHS foresee the need to acquire over 2 billion rounds of ammunition? Please do not muddy this thread with ad-hominem attack, but rather contribute well-sourced and plausible explanation, in particular from the DHS, on the issue of legally binding access to over 2 billion rounds of ammunition. Thank you.

If the DHS had a "plausible explanation" for such stockpiling, we would have heard it by now.

[jshuberg]

I believe the contract was for "up to" 2 billion rounds over a several year period of time, and that to date they have actually been purchasing less rounds annually under this contract than in previous years. Has something new came out that I'm not aware of?

If they've actually purchased and are receiving 2 billion rounds, that would cause my ears to perk up. Is anyone claiming that this amount of anmo has actually been purchased, rather than being an intent to potentially purchase between x and y number of rounds over z period of time?

[NMRMN]

I believe the contract was for "up to" 2 billion rounds over a several year period of time, and that to date they have actually been purchasing less rounds annually under this contract than in previous years. Has something new came out that I'm not aware of?

If they've actually purchased and are receiving 2 billion rounds, that would cause my ears to perk up. Is anyone claiming that this amount of anmo has actually been purchased, rather than being an intent to potentially purchase between x and y number of rounds over z period of time?

Here's what they have purchased over the past three fiscal years, and I believe their estimates for 2013: http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public//in ... 45c21519c2 The numbers do not appear to me to be particularly noteworthy (aside from the questionable size and nature of this agency). The real question is: under what circumstances would the DHS foresee the need for contracts allowing such a large amount* of ammunition? As I said: Taking delivery (purchasing) and legally binding the supplier to make delivery makes little difference, in the end.

* The DHS has averaged use of 120,517,082rds/yr over the past 3 years and currently has 263,733,362rds stockpiled as of Nov 2012. The reports we have heard are for around 2.1 billion rounds over five years, which averages to 420,000,000rds/yr.

[Nalez]

From info I found, DHS had 210,000 people (180,000 employees + 30,000 servicemen) in 2004. Going off of the number 420,000,000rds/yr, that is 8 million rounds a week. Given those numbers, each person reviving a paycheck from the DHS (from border patrol to the janitor and Bil in the mailroom) is using 38 rounds a week. Thats alot of firearms qualifying....

[NMRMN]

From info I found, DHS had 210,000 people (180,000 employees + 30,000 servicemen) in 2004. Going off of the number 420,000,000rds/yr, that is 8 million rounds a week. Given those numbers, each person reviving a paycheck from the DHS (from border patrol to the janitor and Bil in the mailroom) is using 38 rounds a week. Thats alot of firearms qualifying....

So how many armed personnel are in the DHS, anyways? It is hard to tell: Numbers range from 65,000 to over 135,000... If you work with the max amount of the contract, and assume 100,000 armed personnel, you get 4200rds/person/yr. Make what you will of that number -- Its certainly more than the 72,000,000rds/yr used in Iraq.

With more than 100,000 armed law enforcement personnel in DHS, significant quantities of ammunition are used to support law enforcement operations, quarterly qualifications, and training, to include advanced firearms training exercises," Says DHS spokesman Peter Boogaard. ...Boogaard noted that the contract would be used by all DHS agencies except the Coast Guard.

Homeland Security spokesman Matthew Chandler said that Homeland Security oversees more than 135,000 weapons-carrying officers.

In fact, there are 65,000 – 70,000 law enforcement personnel at DHS who would be covered under this IDIQ ammunition contract say's Kevin Doran -- Congressman Westmoreland’s deputy chief

The facilities also offer firearms training to tens of thousands of federal law enforcement officers. More than 90 federal agencies and 70,000 agents and officers used the department's training center last year says Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Ga

[Heffay]

How long is this contract for? It it a single year's purchase, or an extended program that will meter in the ammo?

[jshuberg]

If you work with the max amount of the contract, and assume 100,000 armed personnel, you get 4200rds/person/yr.

I shoot around 14,000 rounds of pistol ammo a year. That doesn't include rifle ammo, or feeding the machine gun. I think you have a problem understanding how much ammo a person with even a moderate training schedule will go through.

[LarryP]

Makes one want to start a ammo mfgr business.

[911scanner]

If you work with the max amount of the contract, and assume 100,000 armed personnel, you get 4200rds/person/yr.

I shoot around 14,000 rounds of pistol ammo a year. That doesn't include rifle ammo, or feeding the machine gun. I think you have a problem understanding how much ammo a person with even a moderate training schedule will go through.

And you are the exception to the rule when compared with most LEO's. While I'm quite sure that most tactical teams would meet or exceed the 14,000/yr. number you've provided, most "average" LEO's I bet would have a difficult time saying they achieve even 25% of that usage total.

Just sayin'....

[NMRMN]

How long is this contract for? It it a single year's purchase, or an extended program that will meter in the ammo?

Good question. Most of this information should be public and relatively easy to find. I understand (feel free to prove otherwise) that there are a series of contracts -- with minimum and maxim delivery allowances, with a five year term. I am sure there are other various provisions to the contracts that determine many logistical questions and could shed more light on this subject. I would like to investigate when I get more time.

I also think it would be important to understand the size of the overall ammo business and how these contracts could potentially effect pricing and output if the DHS were to take larger deliveries.

[jshuberg]

And you are the exception to the rule when compared with most LEO's.

I'm not a LEO, just a motivated civilian shooter. I apologize if I gave that impression.

[NMRMN]

If you work with the max amount of the contract, and assume 100,000 armed personnel, you get 4200rds/person/yr.

I shoot around 14,000 rounds of pistol ammo a year. That doesn't include rifle ammo, or feeding the machine gun. I think you have a problem understanding how much ammo a person with even a moderate training schedule will go through.

By their own account, they have established an average of 94,996,981rds/yr for non-operational purposes. At least a couple of agencies (NPPD/FPS and ICE) state they reserve 1000rds/yr for training and qualification purposes. My estimate of 100,000 armed personal and their average non-operational use works out to 950rds/yr per person, or pretty close. If the DHS included allowances for much larger amounts of ammunition (including hollow-point) for expanded training purposes, then they should make that clarification.

[Tanfoglio]

Open your eyes! DHS is prepping for the upcoming Mexican revolution/insurrection in the US

[NMRMN]

Open your eyes! DHS is prepping for the upcoming Mexican revolution/insurrection in the US

Don't $h!t on this thread: If you can't add something intelligent to the discussion, leave.