Apathy of a gun owner

[photogpat]

I had an experience yesterday that I felt was worth repeating on here.

I had my HiPoint Carbine listed yesterday for sale both here and Armslist - it sold quickly (as was my point). Now I'm not throwing the buyer under the bus here. He was a nice guy, and we completed a legal transaction to both parties' complete satisfaction.

As we wrapped up our BS'ing (since gunnies aren't known for being shy when talking shop) -- I asked him if he was aware that the transaction we'd just completed would have been a felony under legislation proposed last year in MN and nation-wide. He said he didn't know that - he'd heard about "gun control" and "background checks" but since he never really ever bought guns this way, it didn't affect him. He said he was mainly a bird hunter...but I noticed his openly carried Glock 19.

I told him in addition to so-called "Universal" background checks, carbines like the HiPoint (and a whole host of other pistols/rifles/shotguns) would have been categorized as "assault weapons" and banned, high cap mags for pistols/rifles/shotguns would have been banned. Transfers of firearms (like we'd just completed) would be banned, INCLUDING temporary loans between friends. They were also threatening MN Carry Permit requirements to make them more onerous.

I think I reached him on those last two.

"Do you know any good groups to get involved with?"

*ahem* Two of them. GOCRA and the new MN Gun Owners PAC.

They're coming again this year. Out of state money from Bloomberg, Giffords, and the other alphabet soup Anti-Gun groups. It'll be "smarter" and seem much more "reasonable"...but don't be fooled. Their end goal is exactly the same as its always been.

It's not paranoia if they actually are out to get you.

Get involved now! Get active! Get informed! Don't let them sneak anything through.

/soapbox

[bstrawse]

Great story Pat! We all need to do more of this!
b

[Uffdaphil]

The grabber vanguard of agents provocateurs is already here. They post want-to-buy on Armslist to entrap the unwary and build their case against private sale. The Full Monty will try to get the seller to commit multiple violations. Something like:

"Looking to buy a birthday gun for my boyfriend. He likes assault rifles or high capcity automatic pistols. I just moved here so don't have a MN drivers license yet, but my Illinois DL has not expired and has my picture." Bam! They nail you for straw purchase, selling across state lines, and no legitimate MN ID.

Beware any sale that sounds hinky. That poor grieving widow out of state, selling that $2500 AR for $500? Guide her to her local FFL to handle the transaction. Of course even if legit the FFL is going to offer her double, so you might as well make a fair offer up front. The couple I found just disappear when you advise legitamacy.

[gunsmith]

I suggest substituting the phrase 'Universal Gun Registration and Background Check' for 'Universal Background Check' whenever possible.

Universal Gun Registration and Background Check.....say it..

Universal Gun Registration and Background Check.

Universal Gun Registration and Background Check.

Universal Gun Registration and Background Check.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/co ... n-registry

As the contentious debate over new gun-control regulations surges forward, conservatives and liberty-minded critics are now posing concerns about new legislation that could establish a “gun registry.” Widespread fears of a national firearm registry persist even after many in Congress pledged to bar such a system from becoming active.

Sens. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) and Pat Toomey (R-Pa.), who drafted a background check provision as an amendment to sweeping new firearms legislation, contend that a registry is explicitly forbidden in their proposal. The provision says plainly that the Justice Department “may not consolidate or centralize the records” on firearms sales or possession, and that nothing in the amendment would open the door to a “federal firearms registry.”

Still, gun rights advocates worry that the provision paves the way for a slippery-slope scenario, where an expansion in background checks and regulations becomes a precursor to a national registry, which could then be abused to confiscate weapons from law-abiding Americans. "Once you get these lists out there, once you have a gun dealer keeping lists for lots of other people, the only way that works, frankly I think, is if you keep the paper," Sen. Roy Blunt (R-Mo.) said Monday in an interview with Fox News. "And if you keep the paper, eventually, somebody's going to ask for it."

Indeed, despite lawmakers’ assurances, skepticism over new gun regulations lingers on, as critics say the language in the proposal could very easily be altered. Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) noted last week in a prepared statement that “current federal law can be changed,” and record keeping is one step closer toward registration. Grassley adds that testimony in the Judiciary Committee, and according to language provided by the deputy director of the National Institute of Justice, indicates that universal background checks can be instituted only if gun registration is mandated.

[mrp]

I don't think it really helps to post the BS misquotes, halve-truths, and outright lies.

Take this, for example.

The full Hitler quote is:

The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police.

He was talking about whether to allow Russians in German occupied territory keep their weapons,not about German citizens.

Under Hitler, weapon laws in Germany were actually relaxed. After WWI the allies forced the German government to disarm, and so the German government forced the citizens to disarm. The total ban was relaxed a bit in 1928, and then again under Hitler in 1938. The 1938 Gun laws:

- Gun restriction laws applied only to handguns, not to long guns or ammunition. The 1938 revisions completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, as was the possession of ammunition."
- The legal age at which guns could be purchased was lowered from 20 to 18.
- Permits were valid for three years, rather than one year.
- The groups of people who were exempt from the acquisition permit requirement expanded. Holders of annual hunting permits, government workers, and NSDAP members were no longer subject to gun ownership restrictions. Prior to the 1938 law, only officials of the central government, the states, and employees of the German Reichsbahn Railways were exempted.
This was Hitler, of course, so
- Jews were forbidden from the manufacturing or dealing of firearms and ammunition.

Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Germany#The_1938_German_Weapons_Act

The Reno quote is suspect as well. The bottom line is that IF she actually said this it was 30 years ago, there's no reliable record of it, she has denied saying it, and it has all the attributes of a urban legend. (Different locations, audiences, decades, etc.)

Source: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcbogus.html

There are plenty of real quotes and arguments to be made without making ourselves look like the idiots the other side thinks we are. Stop proving them right.

[gunsmith]

Thanks for the info....I am ready to believe the Janet Reno Quote......but will back away from the 'urban legend' zone...

I like to paint with a broad colorful brush....which is why I like to post pictures...especially documetary images.

As a professional photographer and a student of the great documentary photographers I always find any historical images riveting. (even if they were originally blatant propaganda)

That is something which I think makes Oleg Volk's posters so powerful...the use of real images and historical images....AFAIK he rarely employs LENGTHY quotes (usually just one curt headline) which will get you in trouble.

Thanks for the thoughtful rejoinder our former comrade HEFFAY would have been a complete ass in any response to the posted images.

[jspace]

4 posts until Hitler was mentioned.
What's the current record?

[gunsmith]

Can't swing a dead cat without running into Hitler.

[bstrawse]

Pat's argument at the beginning of this thread is a winner.

This Hitler tie in is a losing argument with the left and with a lot of independents - plus as you can see by this thread, we can't even agree on what the facts are.

Don't complicate the politics more than what is needed!
b

[yuppiejr]

I like to paint with a broad colorful brush....which is why I like to post pictures...especially documetary images.

Monkeys at the zoo do the same thing, though it's often not paint with which they create their wall-art... the result is about the same as your re-post of every bad gun forum Photochop created in the past 8 years though.

That is something which I think makes Oleg Volk's posters so powerful...the use of real images and historical images....AFAIK he rarely employs LENGTHY quotes (usually just one curt headline) which will get you in trouble.

Thanks for the thoughtful rejoinder our former comrade HEFFAY would have been a complete ass in any response to the posted images.

Most of Heffay's posts in response to stuff like this were in the style of Oleg Volk - short, unforgiving and to the point. I'm not sure what sort of fireball you were expecting from Heffay if having your post called "BS misquotes, halve-truths, and outright lies." is considered a "thoughtful rejoinder?" At least you admit that the negative response to the garbage you've posted in this thread is completely deserved.

To the original thread topic - good on Pat for taking an opportunity to get the individual buyer in question involved in the local organizations that are working the front lines on behalf of gun owners in the state. Good reminder that it's time to get out the checkbook for another donation to GOCRA...

[gunsmith]

@bstrawse

But, But, But, But.....can't believe I have this in clear memory....but ....

you will remember when Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto were mentioned...during the March 2013 gun control hearing in the MN legislature...the Libs immediately denied that the weapons that the Warsaw Jews had were of any importance...

I believe it was a Jewish representative who said he lost relatives in the Holocust......anyway I smelled a rat in that the 'guns in the Warsaw Ghetto were insignificant' argument was canned and ready to go. They were trying to sneak a little 'revisionist history' past us.

NOT SO FAST:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... sing1.html

In 1942, Hitler decided to liquidate the ghettos and, within 18 months, had the more than two million Jews who’d survived the ghettos deported to death camps.

The Germans ordered the Jewish “police” in the Warsaw ghetto to round up people for deportation. Approximately 300,000 men, women, and children were packed in cattle cars and transported to the Treblinka death camp where they were murdered. This left a Jewish population of between 55,000 and 60,000 in the ghetto.
Mordecai Anielewicz


In April 1943, the Jews learned the Germans planned to deport all the people who remained in the Warsaw ghetto to Treblinka. A group of mostly young people formed an organization called the Z.O.B. (for the Polish name, Zydowska Organizacja Bojowa, which means Jewish Fighting Organization). The Z.O.B., led by 23-year-old Mordecai Anielewicz, issued a proclamation calling for the Jewish people to resist going to the railroad cars.

In January 1943, Warsaw ghetto fighters fired upon German troops as they tried to round up another group of ghetto inhabitants for deportation. Fighters used a small supply of weapons that had been smuggled into the ghetto. After a few days, the troops retreated. This small victory inspired the ghetto fighters to prepare for future resistance.

The impact on the ghetto residents is described in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust:

The Jews in the ghetto believed that what had happened in January was proof that by offering resistance it was possible to force the Germans to desist from their plans. Many thought that the Germans would persist in unrestrained mass deportations only so long as the Jews were passive, but that in the face of resistance and armed confrontation they would think twice before embarking upon yet another Aktion. The Germans would also have to take into account the possibility that the outbreak of fighting in the ghetto might lead to the rebellion spreading to the Polish population and might create a state of insecurity in all of occupied Poland. These considerations led the civilian population of the ghetto, in the final phase of its existence, to approve of resistance and give its support to the preparations for the uprising. The population also used the interval to prepare and equip a network of subterranean refuges and hiding places, where they could hold out for an extended period even if they were cut off from one another. In the end, every Jew in the ghetto had his own spot in one of the shelters set up in the central part of the ghetto. The civilian population and the fighters now shared a common interest based on the hope that, under the existing circumstances, fighting the Germans might be a way to rescue.

I think it's very offensive for the Liberals in the MN Legislature to minimize the effect that arms had on a population that was marked for extermination. It's all archived in the media library at the legislature....they need to be called out on that BS.

The more I concentrate on the testimony the clearer it gets but I do think it was an exchange between Julianne Ortman and an old fat bald man of Jewish Ancestry. He immediately countered her arugment with the canned response and you could smell the BS from a mile away.

It was as if his argument was 'Resistance is Futile....Why Bother?" I'm ready to let the individual citizen decide if they want to die on their feet or die on their knees'

[photogpat]

My point originally was to remind folks to talk to other gun owners in their lives and remind them that we're all in this together. The opposition is counting on apathy.

If you choose to use a variety of quasi-valid pro-gun memes to make your point, so be it. That wouldn't be my strategy. IMHO, the Hitler analogy plays well only to the choir...appealing to the grouse/deer hunting crowd and those on the sidelines is my game.

[gunsmith]

My point originally was to remind folks to talk to other gun owners in their lives and remind them that we're all in this together. The opposition is counting on apathy.

If you choose to use a variety of quasi-valid pro-gun memes to make your point, so be it. That wouldn't be my strategy. IMHO, the Hitler analogy plays well only to the choir...appealing to the grouse/deer hunting crowd and those on the sidelines is my game.

You followed the hearings this year....do you recall the exchange where a DFL'er poo-poo the mention of armed Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto...It seemed like he was working off of 'Anti-Talking-Points' and his point was essentially 'resistance is futile'

[photogpat]

My point originally was to remind folks to talk to other gun owners in their lives and remind them that we're all in this together. The opposition is counting on apathy.

If you choose to use a variety of quasi-valid pro-gun memes to make your point, so be it. That wouldn't be my strategy. IMHO, the Hitler analogy plays well only to the choir...appealing to the grouse/deer hunting crowd and those on the sidelines is my game.

You followed the hearings this year....do you recall the exchange where a DFL'er poo-poo the mention of armed Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto...It seemed like he was working off of 'Anti-Talking-Points' and his point was essentially 'resistance is futile'

I was there when he said it. It was absolutely offensive, but did the general public ever get wind of the comment....no....

Talking about armed resistance to a facist government only earns you the title of "Tinfoil hat brigade commander" in the eyes of the general public and serves to distance you from middle of the road Americans.

Stick with the facts, they support our side, and appeal to everyone.

Edit to add: ...and yes, I know all about the 2nd Amend. defending all the others. I'm not the one we have to convince though.

[gunsmith]

My point originally was to remind folks to talk to other gun owners in their lives and remind them that we're all in this together. The opposition is counting on apathy.

If you choose to use a variety of quasi-valid pro-gun memes to make your point, so be it. That wouldn't be my strategy. IMHO, the Hitler analogy plays well only to the choir...appealing to the grouse/deer hunting crowd and those on the sidelines is my game.

You followed the hearings this year....do you recall the exchange where a DFL'er poo-poo the mention of armed Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto...It seemed like he was working off of 'Anti-Talking-Points' and his point was essentially 'resistance is futile'

I was there when he said it. It was absolutely offensive, but did the general public ever get wind of the comment....no....

Talking about armed resistance to a facist government only earns you the title of "Tinfoil hat brigade commander" in the eyes of the general public and serves to distance you from middle of the road Americans.

Stick with the facts, they support our side, and appeal to everyone.

Was the exchange with Julianne Ortman? Do you remember the Bald guy's name?


I have to say the Pro gun rights side did an exemplary job at the legislature in 2013 and I have high expectations for next year ...but the fact that it will be an election year helps us as the Libs want to avoid gun bills in an election year.

My 2 cents worth of contribution would be to associate 'Gun Registration' with 'Background Checks' as it seems the 'Universal Background Check' approach is what is coming next and that needs to be smeared with the concept of 'Universal Gun REGISTRATION' and I think Joe Six-Pack knows that's what happened in Canada, Australia, & the UK.

The IRS scandal and NSA scandal can be blended in here.