Possible push by MN DNR to ban lead hunting bullets

[MaryB]

Minnesota DNR is considering a possible ban on lead bullets for hunting. Claiming fragments of lead in deer kills being picked up by eagles. I tend to not believe this and the lead is coming from another source. Plus it isn't like bald eagles are an endangered species anymore, I counted 6 of them near my house the other day.

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/state-legislation/2014/2/minnesota-hunters-discover-the-truth-regarding-the-misleading-campaign-designed-to-ban-lead-ammunition.aspx

[Lunchbox]

Don't we hear about this all the time? As it stand now is there anything that will act the same as lead?

[Nougat]

Don't we hear about this all the time? As it stand now is there anything that will act the same as lead?

yeah, but now if you can blame guns somehow or theres some chance they are even remotely related to the issue at hand they can be held responsible and punishment can be doled out.
if they have lead it came from bullets obviously, theres no other lead in the environment naturally and no other ways lead enters the environment through other pollution, right? are they actually suggesting they have captured eagles and had them pass fragments? maybe they show in cat scans? or they've been dissecting them? I actually saw a pbs show about this and they didn't say fragments the just said lead in their bloodstream and that it correlated to 'hunting zones' so it was obviously from spent rounds.

are they sure fragmented tin has no adverse effects ? that is the green alternative right?

something that came up discussing this at work once was how old guys lady friend down in the cities didn't get her garden soil tested and it was what had been making her sick . a really high lead level in the soil made her garden really bad for her apparently there must have been a shooting range there at some point? or wait the lead from old gas and paint and stuff didn't just magically disappear when we made efforts to dump less of it everywhere, because its like a heavy metal or something? weird to me it would seem chunks would be less contaminating than vapor type stuff getting concentrated when it rains but I'm not a scientist. also I would think the film the old outboard left on the lake could have been pretty bad too.

[photogpat]

There are lead alternatives like copper. The problem is that they run 2-3x as expensive per box as lead. The other problem is once they stick the camel's nose under the tent and ban lead hunting ammo...its not a big step to ban lead target ammo on State Forests...then ban it at ranges....etcetcetc.

The science about where the few eagles a year that die are picking up the lead isn't terribly clear...as deer hunters, you can cover your gut piles and/or bury your carcass remnants when done butchering. That will likely do more than a ban on lead ammo.

[Rip Van Winkle]

How many eagles die from lead poisoning vs windmills?

[steve4102]

There are lead alternatives like copper. The problem is that they run 2-3x as expensive per box as lead. The other problem is once they stick the camel's nose under the tent and ban lead hunting ammo...its not a big step to ban lead target ammo on State Forests...then ban it at ranges....etcetcetc.

The science about where the few eagles a year that die are picking up the lead isn't terribly clear...as deer hunters, you can cover your gut piles and/or bury your carcass remnants when done butchering. That will likely do more than a ban on lead ammo.

Gut piles?
I don't shoot my deer in the guts.

...and if I did, the bullet would be long gone.

[steve4102]

Lead in it's solid form in the ground is not a contaminate. It will not dissolve and it will not contaminate the soil.
This city has miles and miles and miles of lead water pipes feeding just about every home and business. If lead in it's solid form were a toxin, then every single citizen in this city would be affected and the earth under this entire city would be Contaminated.

[xd ED]

Lead in it's solid form in the ground is not a contaminate. It will not dissolve and it will not contaminate the soil.
This city has miles and miles and miles of lead water pipes feeding just about every home and business. If lead in it's solid form were a toxin, then every single citizen in this city would be affected and the earth under this entire city would be Contaminated.

to correct part of your statement, lead was replaced by copper in the 1930s. In service lines Mains have been steel for decades, and other than lead joints lead was not used in mains. Modern water treatment is aimed at keeping lead from dissolving into potable water. Most lead lines are sufficiently tuberculated with calcium to avoid lead exposure via municipal water supplies. And while solid lead is somewhat inert, when in contact with stomach acids it readily dissolves into the blood stream. The big issue with eagle poisoning from was the secondary effects from eating waterfowl that had ingested, or been wounded by wad shot.

With that said I remain unconvinced that eagles are being poisoned by eating shot deer. If that were true there would be poisoned wolf, mink, coyotes, as well as other carrion eaters.

[steve4102]

The main service lines here are still lead. In the older parts of town the lead line comes into the basement and it is there it is converted to copper or Galvanized. The entire main system starts with lead pipes.

[heavy metal daze]

Don't we hear about this all the time? As it stand now is there anything that will act the same as lead?

Gold does, and it has a higher ballistic coefficient than lead. Not at all practical cost-wise, lol.

Copper is okay, but expensive.

Most of the evidence I've read regarding lead shot and poisoning have anyways been very suspect in their sources.

[xd ED]

The main service lines here are still lead. In the older parts of town the lead line comes into the basement and it is there it is converted to copper or Galvanized. The entire main system starts with lead pipes.

I could have been clearer in my earlier post. In the 30s, in St Paul, at least, the material used for service lines switched from lead to copper. My 1918 house has a lead service, and probably some lead solder joints. The water was tested for lead. It was less than 5 ppb. I seen many lead services cut and cross sectioned. What starts as a 5/8, or 3/4" ID is typically so coated with calcium that a wood pencil would be blocked from passage. As far as mains, I've only seen brick/ cement and steel. Even if there are lead mains, water treatment techniques intentionally add lime/ calcium coatings as opposed to a low ph/ softer water that would ultimately corrode the network.

[Lights]

I already contacted my rep. He is on the committee that hears these kind of topics. He told me that he would not vote for any kind of a lead ammo ban. I would encourage all of you to just write an email to your rep and tell them how you feel about the lead ban proposal. This is what I put in the email to my rep. Feel free to copy and past it in a email to your rep.

Rep. XXXXX

I strongly oppose any attempt to ban lead ammunition for hunting. The people that are pushing for this are using false date to support there agenda. Please do not let them band the use of lead.

In 2007, the first hastily-enacted ban on lead ammunition (Assembly Bill (AB) 821) for game hunting was passed in California. It banned the use of lead ammunition for hunting game in the California condor habitat (aka the “condor zone”). Despite the California Department of Fish & Wildlife’s acknowledgment that 99% of hunters are complying with the lead ammunition ban in the “condor zone” since the law took effect, the rate of condor lead poisoning and mortality actually increased since 2007! This failure to reduce condor blood-lead levels, poisoning and mortality suggests that lead ammunition used for hunting was not the source of lead poisoning of condors.

Nonetheless, California recently passed AB 711 expanding AB 821, and lead ammunition ban proponents now cite to the California law to support the expansion of their campaign into Minnesota. In California, AB 711 will expand the lead ammunition ban by 2019 for all hunting throughout California. Anti-lead ammunition advocacy groups claim that the passage of this California law is evidence for the need to ban lead ammunition throughout the U.S.

In California, these groups first used faulty science, scare tactics, and political demagoguery to claim that lead ammunition from hunting was a threat to the California condor. When they realized that these tactics were not getting enough political traction, they expanded their claims to incredibly assert that using lead ammunition for hunting is a significant threat to human health as well, which is simply not true.

They hope that Minnesota is next in line to ban traditional ammunition. Some of these California lead ammunition ban proponents are using the same questionable science and scare tactics to claim that hunters’ lead ammunition presents serious health risk threats to the Bald Eagle, Minnesota hunters and their families. Lead ammunition ban proponents will not stop until Minnesota becomes the next state to ban lead ammunition for all hunting, or until you stop them!

[MXGreg]

if they have lead it came from bullets obviously, theres no other lead in the environment naturally and no other ways lead enters the environment through other pollution, right?

How much lead do you think fishermen add to prime eagle feeding areas? Maybe more than hunters?

[Nougat]

if they have lead it came from bullets obviously, theres no other lead in the environment naturally and no other ways lead enters the environment through other pollution, right?

How much lead do you think fishermen add to prime eagle feeding areas? Maybe more than hunters?

I guess theres sinkers too but I was just thinking of the rainbow of filth covering two feet on both sides of the wake when I was a kid. I'm not a scientist at all or against fishing just thinking out loud. but if there was more lead in the gas back then(27+years ago) it would get into fishes cause they breathe water right? I feel fish would be more likely to gobble up fragments too because they are underwater but then chickens do eat rocks.

also that part was supposed to be sarcastic I think.

[Thunder71]

It's from the mice they eat. Mice eating lead based paint in old barns, etc.

Just a thought.

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