Law Review article: why people oppose background checks

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Law Review article: why people oppose background checks

Postby jdege on Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:10 pm

This article does a great job of explaining why I think it's so important that we not have universal background checks:

The Steepness of the Slippery Slope:
Second Amendment Litigation in the Lower Federal
Courts and What It Has to Do with Background
Recordkeeping Legislation

http://connecticutlawreview.org/files/2014/10/6.OShea_.pdf

If you don’t know who has the guns, you can’t really get at them because our pesky fourth amendment would bar random or house to house searches. . . . [E]ven if you passed sweeping gun bans, evidence from countries that have tried, shows that people who have guns that you don’t know about will just keep them, fueling a tremendous black market inventory that will make things worse.

So it turns out that the inventory of unrecorded, “no paper” guns, is a far stronger barrier against sweeping gun bans than any pronouncement of the Supreme Court or other such parchment limits. It is in fact a hard practical block that renders gun confiscation in America a pipe dream.

. . . And while that scenario seems unlikely today, not so long ago, [confiscation] was the openly articulated agenda of many of the people and organizations in the vanguard of the current battle. And that helps explain the “bewildering” opposition to universal background checks.

Mandatory checks on all secondary sales, supplemented by some type of data recording [as in the Manchin-Toomey Amendment] . . . means that within the life span of those alive today, the inventory of “no paper guns” (which again forms the hard practical barrier against sweeping gun confiscation in America) would evaporate. So the objection to universal background checks, which in isolation many find unobjectionable, is really rooted in a fear of gun registration. And the objection to registration is really an objection to the grand ambition of sweeping supply controls.


Which is exactly to my point. I don't object to background checks on private transfers - I insist on a PTP or PTC in any private transfer for exactly that reason - but I absolutely reject the idea of requiring any sort of paper trail on private transfers. And by that, I include any sort of per-transaction reporting to any government that promises to destroy the information afterwards.

We simply cannot allow a situation in which simple possession of a firearm is presumed to be an illegal act, unless the proper paperwork exists.
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Re: Law Review article: why people oppose background checks

Postby Bearcatrp on Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:31 pm

If I sell any weapon, I get a copy of the persons PTP so I can cover my ass in the event they go out and kill someone and the firearm gets traced back to me. CYA!
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Re: Law Review article: why people oppose background checks

Postby jdege on Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:52 pm

And I expect you don't object to having the seller demand that you show a PTC when you buy.

Neither do I.

But I very much object to having a record of the transfer where the government can expect to find it. It is essential that there remain a significant pool of legal, newly-manufactured, off-paper guns.
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Re: Law Review article: why people oppose background checks

Postby farmerj on Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:30 pm

I'll present the documentation to REVIEW, but you aren't getting a copy of squat. Even a 4473 only gets a review of the documents and hand written information. No copies taken.
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Re: Law Review article: why people oppose background checks

Postby LarryFlew on Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:49 pm

I just have a space on my purchase agreement that says "method of identification" in which I post DL, PTP, PTC. No copies of anything needed the way the law is written. As long as you are not aware that the person is not a legal purchaser it is up to the law to try and prove that you knew he was not legal whether you took a copy of ID or not. If you where selling to that kind of individual do you think he is giving you real ID??
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Re: Law Review article: why people oppose background checks

Postby farmerj on Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:51 pm

Bearcatrp wrote:If I sell any weapon, I get a copy of the persons PTP so I can cover my ass in the event they go out and kill someone and the firearm gets traced back to me. CYA!



That is why I make the statement. To many have a false presumption that they can write the laws as they see fit. No, you don't get to.
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Re: Re: Law Review article: why people oppose background checks

Postby goett047 on Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:14 pm

farmerj wrote:I'll present the documentation to REVIEW, but you aren't getting a copy of squat. Even a 4473 only gets a review of the documents and hand written information. No copies taken.

This^
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Postby IDPA Shooter on Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:31 pm

Agree with the above, someone said I will take a photo of your DL and Permit. Ah, no and hell no. You have my name write down the last 4 digits on the permit and note the County of issue if that makes you happy. Pretty convincing evidence they actually saw my permit if it ever becomes an issue

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Postby goett047 on Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:09 pm

The only way anyone is writing mine down and still making a sale is if they remember it and don't do it in front of me.
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Re: Law Review article: why people oppose background checks

Postby Lumpy on Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:29 pm

jdege wrote:We simply cannot allow a situation in which simple possession of a firearm is presumed to be an illegal act, unless the proper paperwork exists.
At times the BATFE has taken that attitude towards all NFA firearms.
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Re: Law Review article: why people oppose background checks

Postby jdege on Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:29 pm

Lumpy wrote:
jdege wrote:We simply cannot allow a situation in which simple possession of a firearm is presumed to be an illegal act, unless the proper paperwork exists.
At times the BATFE has taken that attitude towards all NFA firearms.

Exactly. Currently it's only the NFA owners who risk being imprisoned because BATF "lost" the paperwork. If we require a paper trail on all transfers, and we'll all face that risk.
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Re: Law Review article: why people oppose background checks

Postby 20mm on Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:36 am

farmerj wrote:
Bearcatrp wrote:If I sell any weapon, I get a copy of the persons PTP so I can cover my ass in the event they go out and kill someone and the firearm gets traced back to me. CYA!



That is why I make the statement. To many have a false presumption that they can write the laws as they see fit. No, you don't get to.


You must end up with a lot of dealers refusing to sell/transfer to you.
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Re: Law Review article: why people oppose background checks

Postby farmerj on Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:38 am

20mm wrote:
farmerj wrote:
Bearcatrp wrote:If I sell any weapon, I get a copy of the persons PTP so I can cover my ass in the event they go out and kill someone and the firearm gets traced back to me. CYA!



That is why I make the statement. To many have a false presumption that they can write the laws as they see fit. No, you don't get to.


You must end up with a lot of dealers refusing to sell/transfer to you.



most dealers are the issue. Scheels so far is the only one I will not purchase anything from. I have enough folks I buy the guns I need/want from, It's never an issue.
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