Obama Calls for Assault Weapons Ban, New 'No Fly, No Buy' La

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Re: Obama Calls for Assault Weapons Ban, New 'No Fly, No Buy' La

Postby steve4102 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:07 am

Ghost wrote:Ok and how would have this new legislation stopped this guy if it had been enacted 2 years ago?


It wouldn't.

...but the Democrats are not interested in stopping gun violence, they are interested in gun control and people control.

The Republican backed legislation most likely will not do anything to stop a terrorist attack or a terrorist from obtaining weapons. It will not however, put any restrictions, penalties, or taxes on Law Abiding Citizens, unlike the Gun-Control legislation proposed by the Democrats.

...but what it will do is shut down Hillary's and Obama's campaign strategy that the NRA and the Republicans are responsible for shutting down legislation that would have stopped this attack, when in fact it was the Democrats that shot down "watch list" legislation.

Now it's up to the Democrats to explain why they killed Legislation, that they claim, would have stopped this attack.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/senate-de ... le/2002814

This is a political maneuver by the NRA and the Republicans and it is a good one. The one thing that is needed to make it work however, is for Gun Owners and NRA members to be smart enough to know that they are fighting for you and not against you.
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Re: Obama Calls for Assault Weapons Ban, New 'No Fly, No Buy' La

Postby Ghost on Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:13 am

I understand what you are saying and I see the logic. Since it accomplishes nothing what do we give next time it happens?
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Re: Obama Calls for Assault Weapons Ban, New 'No Fly, No Buy' La

Postby steve4102 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:26 am

Ghost wrote:I understand what you are saying and I see the logic. Since it accomplishes nothing what do we give next time it happens?


One step at a time and this step is to show the Hypocrisy of the Democrats and to keep Hillary out of the White House, where she will be able to appoint as many as 3 Supreme Court Justices over the next 8 years.

If we allow that to happen, their won't be a next time. Remember Heller was only 5-4 decision and it is hanging by a thread with this upcoming election.
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Re: Obama Calls for Assault Weapons Ban, New 'No Fly, No Buy' La

Postby Ghost on Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:36 am

Guess we'll see how it unfolds
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Re: Obama Calls for Assault Weapons Ban, New 'No Fly, No Buy' La

Postby igofast on Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:24 am

steve4102 wrote:
Under Republican legislation sponsored by Senator John Cornyn, the federal government may delay the sale of a firearm to someone on the watch list for up to 72 hours. During that time, if the government can show a judge there’s “probable cause”–the same legal standard used to obtain a search warrant–that the individual is plotting terrorism, then the gun sale is denied outright. The measure received 55 votes in the Senate. It it secured the backing of staunch conservatives like Ted Cruz, Mike Lee, and Marco Rubio as well as moderate Republicans Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski and moderate Democrats Joe Manchin and Joe Donnelly. The only Republican to oppose it was Mark Kirk.


Here is the NRA's official response and position.

Fairfax, Va.— The executive director of the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative Action, Chris W. Cox, released the following statement regarding terror watchlists:

We are happy to meet with Donald Trump. The NRA's position on this issue has not changed. The NRA believes that terrorists should not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms, period. Anyone on a terror watchlist who tries to buy a gun should be thoroughly investigated by the FBI and the sale delayed while the investigation is ongoing. If an investigation uncovers evidence of terrorist activity or involvement, the government should be allowed to immediately go to court, block the sale, and arrest the terrorist. At the same time, due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed. That has been the position of Sen. John Cornyn (R.-Tex.) and a majority of the U.S. Senate. Sadly, President Obama and his allies would prefer to play politics with this issue.


Note both the NRA and Senator Cornyn's positions are almost identical.

This isn't a new position by the NRA. This is the same legislation the NRA and Republicans supported that was rejected by the Democrats.
The way it works is if you are on the watchlist and attempt to buy a firearm, you are delayed.
The government is notified and has to get a court order to block the sale. So Americans get due process and terrorists can't use a NICS check to see if the FBI is on to them.

As a political move, it is smart as the Democrats already rejected this once. Now that Trump has drawn all this attention to it, they either have to accept the NRA position or try and explain why they are rejecting an offer to block people on the terrorist watchlist from buying guns.


The reason this was rejected years ago is because 'undue burden on the Justice department', ie we can't possibly give people due process for our secret list.

As far as I can tell this list has prevented as much terrorism as the ineffective TSA. However I don't see it going away and it keeps coming up like a bad penny - even Trump, the defender of the 2nd amendment, wants to ban people on it from firearm purchases. If this is an opportunity to fix the list and get some due process behind it in the guise of "doing something" - it's definitely a case of taking lemons and getting lemonade.
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Re: Obama Calls for Assault Weapons Ban, New 'No Fly, No Buy' La

Postby MJY65 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:51 am

igofast wrote:
steve4102 wrote:As far as I can tell this list has prevented as much terrorism as the ineffective TSA. However I don't see it going away and it keeps coming up like a bad penny - even Trump, the defender of the 2nd amendment, wants to ban people on it from firearm purchases. If this is an opportunity to fix the list and get some due process behind it in the guise of "doing something" - it's definitely a case of taking lemons and getting lemonade.


I'm kind of seeing it the same way. The no-fly list is problematic in terms of flying, regardless of its effect on gun purchases. Adding due process would be a good thing.
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Re: Obama Calls for Assault Weapons Ban, New 'No Fly, No Buy' La

Postby steve4102 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:02 am

The NRA'as position and the Cornyn bill are not talking about the No-Fly list.

They are talking about the "Terrorist Watch" list, not the same.

Nobody in the Republican party, not even Trump, whats to ban people on this "Watch " list, just for being on the list.

Get the facts and remember them, they are important.


Here is is again.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/senate-de ... le/2002814

What's been lost in the debate is the fact that Republicans have an alternative to the Democratic proposal. Under Republican legislation sponsored by Senator John Cornyn, the federal government may delay the sale of a firearm to someone on the watch list for up to 72 hours. During that time, if the government can show a judge there's "probable cause"—the same legal standard used to obtain a search warrant—that the individual is plotting terrorism, then the gun sale is denied outright. The measure received 55 votes in the Senate. It secured the backing of staunch conservatives like Ted Cruz, Mike Lee, and Marco Rubio as well as moderate Republicans Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski and moderate Democrats Joe Manchin and Joe Donnelly. The only Republican to oppose it was Mark Kirk.


Not even close to banning someone just for being on a list. Delaying a sale is not a ban, it is an inconvenience.

If the FBI or other law enforcement agency can prove to a judge that you should not be allowed to purchase, then Due Process has been served. If the FBI or other, does not have enough evidence to convince a Judge, then you get your firearm and Due Process is served.
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Re: Obama Calls for Assault Weapons Ban, New 'No Fly, No Buy' La

Postby igofast on Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:12 am

steve4102 wrote:The NRA'as position and the Cornyn bill are not talking about the No-Fly list.

They are talking about the "Terrorist Watch" list, not the same.

Nobody in the Republican party, not even Trump, whats to ban people on this "Watch " list, just for being on the list.

Get the facts and remember them, they are important.


Here is the quote from Donald Trump:

“I will be meeting with the NRA, who has endorsed me, about not allowing people on the terrorist watch list, or the no fly list, to buy guns,”


Source: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/d ... z4BktUBojT
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Re: Obama Calls for Assault Weapons Ban, New 'No Fly, No Buy' La

Postby steve4102 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:38 am

igofast wrote:
steve4102 wrote:The NRA'as position and the Cornyn bill are not talking about the No-Fly list.

They are talking about the "Terrorist Watch" list, not the same.

Nobody in the Republican party, not even Trump, whats to ban people on this "Watch " list, just for being on the list.

Get the facts and remember them, they are important.


Here is the quote from Donald Trump:

“I will be meeting with the NRA, who has endorsed me, about not allowing people on the terrorist watch list, or the no fly list, to buy guns,”


Source: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/d ... z4BktUBojT


Right, that is what the meeting was about, not letting people on the "list" purchase firearms. Whether we should or should not. Doesn't say that he is going to meet with the NRA and tell them to change their position. Said he was going to meet with them on the subject of banning those on the list, or put another way, meet with them about not banning those on the list
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Re: Obama Calls for Assault Weapons Ban, New 'No Fly, No Buy' La

Postby steve4102 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:41 am

There are 3 different databases used to screen for terrorists. The "TIDES" database, which has around 1.1 million people on it and is the one the Dems want to use. Then the FBI maintains it's own separate list of people it suspects of terrorist activities (the "Terrorist watchlist") which has about 800,000 people. This is what the NRA and Trump propose using. The "no-fly" list is a subset of the FBI terrorist watch list and has about 64,000 names (figures per various news reports).
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Re: Obama Calls for Assault Weapons Ban, New 'No Fly, No Buy' La

Postby Ghost on Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:16 am

on phone can't embed, Colion Noir's response
https://youtu.be/_PFc_2z0buo
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