NRA just called

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Re: NRA just called

Postby BigBlue on Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:15 pm

yukonjasper wrote:Do we really want to die on the Bumpstock Hill?

They are a fun gimmick for sure, but I can't see going to war over something as inconsequential as that. Whether that particular toy is legal isn't my litmus test for how hard anyone is working. Ive never seen a convincing argument made to keep them except for the classic MALON LABE hardcore 2A there should be no restrictions on anything, ever by anyone. Which is not at all realistic. I'd rather save the powder and the time for serious issues. That's my $.02, flame suit on for all the big" L" Libertarians who live in an idealized universe that most likely will never return. I, personally, am willing to trade bumpstocks for high cap magazines - I know, slippery slope, what's next, but within the context of existing laws, i haven't heard one convincing argument made for keeping bumpstocks legal.

Please convince me.

Bottom line is, I'd rather have the NRA than not have the NRA.


The actual item is irrelevant. The fact is that they are coming for everything and will never stop and be happy that they "got something". If they get this it is a foot in the door and it wil set a precedent. They will keep coming back for more and eventually (very soon) it will be very meaningful things.

Why do you suppose they started with bumpstocks? For the very reason that they are fairly obscure and most people won't care, but they still serve to set a precedent. It's why, I'm convinced, they were even found at the Vegas crime scene.

BB
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Re: NRA just called

Postby xd ED on Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:32 pm

yukonjasper wrote:Do we really want to die on the Bumpstock Hill?

They are a fun gimmick for sure, but I can't see going to war over something as inconsequential as that. Whether that particular toy is legal isn't my litmus test for how hard anyone is working. Ive never seen a convincing argument made to keep them except for the classic MALON LABE hardcore 2A there should be no restrictions on anything, ever by anyone. Which is not at all realistic. I'd rather save the powder and the time for serious issues. That's my $.02, flame suit on for all the big" L" Libertarians who live in an idealized universe that most likely will never return. I, personally, am willing to trade bumpstocks for high cap magazines - I know, slippery slope, what's next, but within the context of existing laws, i haven't heard one convincing argument made for keeping bumpstocks legal.

Please convince me.

Bottom line is, I'd rather have the NRA than not have the NRA.


yukonjasper wrote: "...high cap magazines..."


They even got you using their terminology.


"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." - Winston Churchill

So you think that throwing the beast a bump stock, your magazines will be safe next year?
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Re: NRA just called

Postby Ghost on Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:43 pm

bstrawse wrote:
yukonjasper wrote:Do we really want to die on the Bumpstock Hill?

They are a fun gimmick for sure, but I can't see going to war over something as inconsequential as that. Whether that particular toy is legal isn't my litmus test for how hard anyone is working. Ive never seen a convincing argument made to keep them except for the classic MALON LABE hardcore 2A there should be no restrictions on anything, ever by anyone. Which is not at all realistic. I'd rather save the powder and the time for serious issues. That's my $.02, flame suit on for all the big" L" Libertarians who live in an idealized universe that most likely will never return. I, personally, am willing to trade bumpstocks for high cap magazines - I know, slippery slope, what's next, but within the context of existing laws, i haven't heard one convincing argument made for keeping bumpstocks legal.

Please convince me.

Bottom line is, I'd rather have the NRA than not have the NRA.




Because if we don't fight this, then we're agreeing that accessories are something that can be banned.
Because if we don't fight this, then we're saying that a bump stock ban is going to actually to do something to lower violent crime with a firearm.
Because if we don't fight this, we're saying that the ATF has the legal authority to regulate something that in statute they have no such authority to regulate.
Because if we don't fight this, the anti's will take those resources and move on to their next target.

I want them to have to fight tooth and nail for every single inch - on everything that's out there. The longer we hold the line on current law, the more we expand gun rights when we have the votes, the harder it is for them to get to the stuff they really want. Registration, AWB, magazine restrictions, gun owner licensing, and more.

Bryan

Well said.

And you didn’t even get into changing the rules to make it harder to oust their current leadership. Paying $5m to its upper echelon or even paying $300k to that worthless Hammer.
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Re: NRA just called

Postby Grayskies on Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:33 pm

The Scorpion and the Frog wrote:One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.
The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.

Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.

"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"

"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.

"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"

Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"

"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"

"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.

"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"

So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.

Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.

"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"

The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.

"I could not help myself. It is my nature."

Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.

A very good & apt story.
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Re: NRA just called

Postby Erud on Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:03 pm

yukonjasper wrote:DI, personally, am willing to trade bumpstocks for high cap magazines - I know, slippery slope, what's next, but within the context of existing laws, i haven't heard one convincing argument made for keeping bumpstocks legal.

Please convince me.


So what’s the trade you are proposing? Both bump stocks and high cap mags are legal for us to own now, but in 3 months only one of the two will be. Doesn’t seem like a great trade to me.
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Re: NRA just called

Postby Holland&Holland on Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:43 pm

bstrawse wrote:
yukonjasper wrote:Do we really want to die on the Bumpstock Hill?

They are a fun gimmick for sure, but I can't see going to war over something as inconsequential as that. Whether that particular toy is legal isn't my litmus test for how hard anyone is working. Ive never seen a convincing argument made to keep them except for the classic MALON LABE hardcore 2A there should be no restrictions on anything, ever by anyone. Which is not at all realistic. I'd rather save the powder and the time for serious issues. That's my $.02, flame suit on for all the big" L" Libertarians who live in an idealized universe that most likely will never return. I, personally, am willing to trade bumpstocks for high cap magazines - I know, slippery slope, what's next, but within the context of existing laws, i haven't heard one convincing argument made for keeping bumpstocks legal.

Please convince me.

Bottom line is, I'd rather have the NRA than not have the NRA.



Because if we don't fight this, then we're agreeing that accessories are something that can be banned.
Because if we don't fight this, then we're saying that a bump stock ban is going to actually to do something to lower violent crime with a firearm.
Because if we don't fight this, we're saying that the ATF has the legal authority to regulate something that in statute they have no such authority to regulate.
Because if we don't fight this, the anti's will take those resources and move on to their next target.

I want them to have to fight tooth and nail for every single inch - on everything that's out there. The longer we hold the line on current law, the more we expand gun rights when we have the votes, the harder it is for them to get to the stuff they really want. Registration, AWB, magazine restrictions, gun owner licensing, and more.

Bryan


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Re: NRA just called

Postby Holland&Holland on Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:44 pm

yukonjasper wrote:Do we really want to die on the Bumpstock Hill?

They are a fun gimmick for sure, but I can't see going to war over something as inconsequential as that. Whether that particular toy is legal isn't my litmus test for how hard anyone is working. Ive never seen a convincing argument made to keep them except for the classic MALON LABE hardcore 2A there should be no restrictions on anything, ever by anyone. Which is not at all realistic. I'd rather save the powder and the time for serious issues. That's my $.02, flame suit on for all the big" L" Libertarians who live in an idealized universe that most likely will never return. I, personally, am willing to trade bumpstocks for high cap magazines - I know, slippery slope, what's next, but within the context of existing laws, i haven't heard one convincing argument made for keeping bumpstocks legal.

Please convince me.

Bottom line is, I'd rather have the NRA than not have the NRA.


Then you haven't been listening.
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Re: NRA just called

Postby Holland&Holland on Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:52 pm

Tronster wrote:
yukonjasper wrote:Do we really want to die on the Bumpstock Hill? ... I, personally, am willing to trade bumpstocks for high cap magazines


Thing is, they are not even proposing anything along the lines of "If we ban bump stocks we'll leave the magazines alone". They want bumps stocks AND full capacity mags banned, along with a crap ton of other stuff. This will never stop, they will never be satiated. I don't have skin in the bumpstock fight, but arbitrarily banning bumpstocks with no compensation and felony penalties is bogus and opens the door for broader bans down the road.

Oh the left is always willing to make a trade. I mean heck they agreed to secure the border back under Regan in exchange for amnesty so not sure why Trump feels we need another wall since they already built one.

Then there was the deal to cut the budget if we just increased the country credit card, oh wait we make that deal every 6 months.

Here is a deal for them, I will personally bake a cake for whatever type of wedding anyone wants in exchange for leaving my guns alone.
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Re: NRA just called

Postby yukonjasper on Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:45 am

I love the passion but giving the largest and most powerful single voice who can advocate for your views the silent treatment and starving it for cash to do so seems counterintuitive. More involvement not less, more cash with direction on how to use it is what is needed, not quiet scorn and wallet sitting. We will loose the fight because we are all so purely principled that we withdraw when the message isn't totally and absolutely aligned with ours. Use your donations to deliver the message. If the messenger is outof step, you'll never win by refusing to pay for dance lessons.
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Re: NRA just called

Postby xd ED on Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:58 am

yukonjasper wrote:I love the passion but giving the largest and most powerful single voice who can advocate for your views the silent treatment and starving it for cash to do so seems counterintuitive. More involvement not less, more cash with direction on how to use it is what is needed, not quiet scorn and wallet sitting. We will loose the fight because we are all so purely principled that we withdraw when the message isn't totally and absolutely aligned with ours. Use your donations to deliver the message. If the messenger is outof step, you'll never win by refusing to pay for dance lessons.


Your post reminds me of why I no longer contribute to the Red Cross, or United Way... but gladly drop funds into the Salvation Army's red kettles...

Yes, the NRA is in position that they: "... can advocate for your views..." but none the less don't, and the incomes of the upper echelon seem to indicate they really aren't starving for cash.

There are those on the national, and local scene, 'meaner and hungrier' to get things done.
They - the NRA - can't even spring for a few bucks to support competitive shooting, in spite of that being a primary mission, and a source of at least modest income.

Like others, until things change; seeing leaner, meaner, and keener leadership, the money I spent on my elevated Life Membership a few years ago will be the last of my voluntary contributions to them.
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Re: NRA just called

Postby Erud on Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:08 am

xd ED wrote:
yukonjasper wrote:I love the passion but giving the largest and most powerful single voice who can advocate for your views the silent treatment and starving it for cash to do so seems counterintuitive. More involvement not less, more cash with direction on how to use it is what is needed, not quiet scorn and wallet sitting. We will loose the fight because we are all so purely principled that we withdraw when the message isn't totally and absolutely aligned with ours. Use your donations to deliver the message. If the messenger is outof step, you'll never win by refusing to pay for dance lessons.


Your post reminds me of why I no longer contribute to the Red Cross, or United Way... but gladly drop funds into the Salvation Army's red kettles...

Yes, the NRA is in position that they: "... can advocate for your views..." but none the less don't, and the incomes of the upper echelon seem to indicate they really aren't starving for cash.

There are those on the national, and local scene, 'meaner and hungrier' to get things done.
They - the NRA - can't even spring for a few bucks to support competitive shooting, in spite of that being a primary mission, and a source of at least modest income.

Like others, until things change; seeing leaner, meaner, and keener leadership, the money I spent on my elevated Life Membership a few years ago will be the last of my voluntary contributions to them.


Very well said. I've given a lot of money to the NRA in the past, but going forward, my money will go to groups that actually plan to do something. If the NRA makes some much-needed changes, I am willing to re-evaluate that position. For now, it just seems like throwing good money after bad.
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Re: NRA just called

Postby Jackpine Savage on Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:09 am

xd ED wrote:Your post reminds me of why I no longer contribute to the Red Cross, or United Way... but gladly drop funds into the Salvation Army's red kettles...

Yes, the NRA is in position that they: "... can advocate for your views..." but none the less don't, and the incomes of the upper echelon seem to indicate they really aren't starving for cash.

There are those on the national, and local scene, 'meaner and hungrier' to get things done.
They - the NRA - can't even spring for a few bucks to support competitive shooting, in spite of that being a primary mission, and a source of at least modest income.

Like others, until things change; seeing leaner, meaner, and keener leadership, the money I spent on my elevated Life Membership a few years ago will be the last of my voluntary contributions to them.


I've been supporting them, I'm an Endowment member. But there is a lot of truth in what you said.
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Re: NRA just called

Postby xd ED on Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:10 am

Holland&Holland wrote:
bstrawse wrote:
yukonjasper wrote:Do we really want to die on the Bumpstock Hill?

They are a fun gimmick for sure, but I can't see going to war over something as inconsequential as that. Whether that particular toy is legal isn't my litmus test for how hard anyone is working. Ive never seen a convincing argument made to keep them except for the classic MALON LABE hardcore 2A there should be no restrictions on anything, ever by anyone. Which is not at all realistic. I'd rather save the powder and the time for serious issues. That's my $.02, flame suit on for all the big" L" Libertarians who live in an idealized universe that most likely will never return. I, personally, am willing to trade bumpstocks for high cap magazines - I know, slippery slope, what's next, but within the context of existing laws, i haven't heard one convincing argument made for keeping bumpstocks legal.

Please convince me.

Bottom line is, I'd rather have the NRA than not have the NRA.



Because if we don't fight this, then we're agreeing that accessories are something that can be banned.
Because if we don't fight this, then we're saying that a bump stock ban is going to actually to do something to lower violent crime with a firearm.
Because if we don't fight this, we're saying that the ATF has the legal authority to regulate something that in statute they have no such authority to regulate.
Because if we don't fight this, the anti's will take those resources and move on to their next target.

I want them to have to fight tooth and nail for every single inch - on everything that's out there. The longer we hold the line on current law, the more we expand gun rights when we have the votes, the harder it is for them to get to the stuff they really want. Registration, AWB, magazine restrictions, gun owner licensing, and more.

Bryan


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^^^This^^^2
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Re: NRA just called

Postby crbutler on Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:17 pm

I agree it’s something to fight, but that fight on full auto weapons has been neglected for a long time, and even here I don’t hear that being advocated.

As far as I can see, the bump stock is and always was a way to get full auto fire without complying with the provisions of the NFA.

I’ve been a pretty big supporter of the NRA, a Patron Life member.

Frankly, the NRA is a grassroots organization. Remember the Knox revolution there. While I have some issues with LaPierre and the paid leadership, the way to deal with it is to get folks to vote in directors who will get the org moving in the way you want it to, not play passive-aggressive and fracture the support.

While the MN orgs do good for MN, they don’t do much for national issues.

I suspect if you can get 20-30k votes behind someone, they are in at the NRA BOD elections. That is the way to handle your angst at the NRA, not whinging on a regional gun board. How many of you all even filled out the ballot?
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Re: NRA just called

Postby yukonjasper on Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:37 pm

:iagree: :exactly:
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