Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby andrewP on Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:11 pm

jhp wrote:A) The "reasonable and direct cost..." of the permit processing is less than $100 in which case the sheriff is breaking the law as written when they charge everyone else "full price"


Given that not all of them charge the same price, this has always seemed likely to me, even outside of the context of the specific issue under discussion in this thread.
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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby jhp on Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:25 pm

In 2017, Steele County reported that they brought in $34,675 in permit fees. Their "expenses" listed included "Office furniture" at $3,247,68, "Office machines" at $6,045, with their total "expenses" being $13,013.68, leaving a surplus of $21,661.32. Divided up by the 369 new and renewed permits, thats an apparent overcharging of about $65.84 per person (blended across both new and renewal permits)

The 2018 report is a little less clear due to how the report truncated the county names near the end of the report. If I counted the number of entries correctly Steele County reported $40,025.00 in revenue and reported a total of $7,711.25 expenses (though no new office furniture this year, bummer) still leaving a surplus of $32,313.75. That's about $72.29 overcharged across the 447 new and renewal permits (again blended).

So by that reasoning can we say that Steele County's "reasonable and direct cost" per permit processed is about $27.11? Maybe that's how they arrived at the $25 cost?

Either way...something to consider I guess.

By the way if you're ever feeling great and want a little nausea to bring you back around check out the permit statistics reports if you've never read them. There are very few departments that seem to follow either the letter or the spirit of the statute which is a shame.

Sources:

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-di ... Report.pdf
https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-di ... Report.pdf
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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby Ghost on Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:31 pm

jhp wrote:In 2017, Steele County reported that they brought in $34,675 in permit fees. Their "expenses" listed included "Office furniture" at $3,247,68, "Office machines" at $6,045, with their total "expenses" being $13,013.68, leaving a surplus of $21,661.32. Divided up by the 369 new and renewed permits, thats an apparent overcharging of about $65.84 per person (blended across both new and renewal permits)

The 2018 report is a little less clear due to how the report truncated the county names near the end of the report. If I counted the number of entries correctly Steele County reported $40,025.00 in revenue and reported a total of $7,711.25 expenses (though no new office furniture this year, bummer) still leaving a surplus of $32,313.75. That's about $72.29 overcharged across the 447 new and renewal permits (again blended).

So by that reasoning can we say that Steele County's "reasonable and direct cost" per permit processed is about $27.11? Maybe that's how they arrived at the $25 cost?

Either way...something to consider I guess.

By the way if you're ever feeling great and want a little nausea to bring you back around check out the permit statistics reports if you've never read them. There are very few departments that seem to follow either the letter or the spirit of the statute which is a shame.

Sources:

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-di ... Report.pdf
https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-di ... Report.pdf

Good info
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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby wasfuzz on Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:11 pm

Many Retired Cops do not have the same Permit that "you" have, ours is valid in all fifty states, still must follow same laws as permit holders in those states. We have to pay for our training annually and re-qualify annually there is NO charge for our permit nor is it printed on a card like yours and the state has no control over our permits. This is thanks to Obama and the HR 218 bill that was passed during his administration.
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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby rtk on Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:18 pm

wasfuzz wrote:Many Retired Cops do not have the same Permit that "you" have, ours is valid in all fifty states, still must follow same laws as permit holders in those states. We have to pay for our training annually and re-qualify annually there is NO charge for our permit nor is it printed on a card like yours and the state has no control over our permits. This is thanks to Obama and the HR 218 bill that was passed during his administration.


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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby wasfuzz on Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:45 pm

[quote="rtk"It must be nice to be special...; )[/quote]
It is they make special buses and everything for us! ;)
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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby Ghost on Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:50 pm

wasfuzz wrote:
rtk wrote:It must be nice to be special...; )

It is they make special buses and everything for us! ;)


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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby rtk on Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:51 pm

wasfuzz wrote:[quote="rtk"It must be nice to be special...; )

It is they make special buses and everything for us! ;)[/quote]

Ha! :)
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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby rtk on Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:55 pm

I think he was talking about this
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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby Holland&Holland on Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:01 pm

jhp wrote:
Holland&Holland wrote:
Many gun related businesses offer such a discount.


The government is not a business and doesn't get to decide to arbitrarily charge what they want, for who they want. Either:

A) The "reasonable and direct cost..." of the permit processing is less than $100 in which case the sheriff is breaking the law as written when they charge everyone else "full price"
or
B) The "reasonable and direct cost..." is greater than or equal to $100 and the sheriff is now passing the costs for processing some people's permits onto the rest of the taxpayers.

While the sheriff's intent to support military/LE is probably rooted in a desire to do a nice thing, neither of these scenarios are okay. Either everyone gets the discount or nobody does, that's what's fair. Would you feel the same way if women got a discount but not men?

Personally I'd be happy if each sheriff's department followed the law as written. However after reading the permit statistics reports for as many years as they have been available it's pretty clear many of them treat the permit processing as a revenue stream and use the permit fees as a way to offset other operational costs.


Is that not exactly what I said?

News flash the DNR is not a business either and offers discounts licences for veterans too.
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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby jhp on Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:39 pm

Holland&Holland wrote:Is that not exactly what I said?

News flash the DNR is not a business either and offers discounts licences for veterans too.


Well...no. Over several posts you (essentially) said you had no problem with it, three times. I was actually kind of surprised to see that anyone was ok with that for a number of reasons.

The people who wrote the carry statutes did so in a very careful and methodical manner and used very specific language for the specific purpose of preventing any one individual from deciding who should or should not get a permit. We are a shall issue state for a good reason and this is a very slippery slope to the sheriff just making up whatever rules they want for their own personal reasons and using that as a mechanism to either approve or deny permits at their own discretion.

It's as clear as day - the law says charge your actual costs or $100, whichever is less. This sheriff legally can't decide arbitrarily to charge $25 any more than they can decide to charge $500.

The DNR operates differently in this capacity - first that they are bound by having oversight committees and boards and things like setting departmental rules and permit and license costs - not just one individual arbitrarily making up whatever they think is best. Second they are not bound directly by state statute to charge a very (legally) specific amount for those permits and licenses. It's probably deserving of a topic of its own but for those two reasons alone it's not really a great analogy here.
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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:56 am

Holland&Holland wrote:
I can concede your point that perhaps guberment should not make such a distinction.


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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby jhp on Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:03 am

Holland&Holland wrote:
Many gun related businesses offer such a discount. Cabela's, Midway USA, OGC, DNR, many many others. I have no issue with it. I can concede your point that perhaps guberment should not make such a distinction. Private business should be allowed to conduct their business how they see fit. I still have no issue with it even considering it is guberment.


LOL then two sentences later you said you didn't have a problem with it again.

I guess either you don't write your own posts...or yeah I'm confused on your position.
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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby BigDog58 on Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:32 am

rtk wrote:I think he was talking about this


That's the bus Fuzzy drives to the Wed lunches :secret:
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Re: Sheriff slashes PTC Fees for Vets & Ret. Police

Postby Ghost on Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:11 am

BigDog58 wrote:
rtk wrote:I think he was talking about this


That's the bus Fuzzy drives to the Wed lunches :secret:

It’s one thing to be the driver and it’s another to be driven.
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