crbutler wrote:First, who decides if you have COVID or are spreading?
It isn’t a matter of who decides, it’s a matter of fact. You will likely not know until well after the fact. You can be asymptomatic for several days before symptoms, while shedding virus. That’s the basis for the stay at home order. Of course, it’s impossible to absolutely quarantine for prolonged periods of time.
So how is this any different from the situation that everyone in society is in right now? What about the asymptomatic spreaders, and what if I'm one of those? How do you identify that I was the one doing the spreading? Should we not be holding people accountable for acting irresponsibly any time they leave their homes for any reason?
crbutler wrote:It’s not reasonable to hold folks responsible for something that there is no choice in. The whole purpose of contact tracing is to let folks who have been exposed know so that they can take the highest level of precautions.
Sure. I actually was exposed about 5 weeks ago to someone who tested positive 2 days later. I found out 2 days after that, and I stayed away from people other than my wife for an additional 10 days.
crbutler wrote:Responsibility would be doing things that you know are dangerous or not taking reasonable precautions that the average person would find appropriate.
And you believe that I am doing that?
crbutler wrote:If I went into a possible COVID case’s room without PPE, and then went to a grocery store, I would feel guilty about giving someone Covid. If you are going into a public gym and exercising regularly without a mask and keeping distance at all times, you are indulging in a high risk activity. Would you feel guilty if you caught it and gave it to another person in your home because your exercise took priority over their health? Not legal responsibility, but responsible? Legal liability is different, true.
My wife is of the same mind on this as I am. We are aware of, and accept the risks of the coronavirus. It's just the 2 of us in our household. Neither of us belong to a gym, or do any of the "high-risk" activities you mention, so I think we are pretty safe.
crbutler wrote:I do think that once the vaccine is available and if it was offered and refused, because “I don’t think it’s worth the risk”, the average man would say you didn’t take the reasonable precaution.
I think you have not discussed this with enough "average" men. You are a doctor, and naturally that puts you in contact with a lot of sick people. It seems like that may have skewed your view of what the rest of society thinks about this issue.
crbutler wrote:As to your comment about American citizen getting a say in what you put in, that has been decided long ago. Try getting DDT, which as far as humans go, is one of the safest insecticides ever made... again, you are going to have a restriction, activities and mask continually or get a shot. Which is the bigger infringement on liberty?
The government preventing me from being able to acquire DDT is not anything like the government forcing me to take medical treatment that I do not want.
crbutler wrote:I think that we have already proven that the average person demands something be done, even with no proof of effectiveness (masking, shutdown)... at least the vaccine has SOME proof of effectiveness. If we have to have one, might as well be the less daily intrusion one that works. Your contention that we have the choice of no intervention at all is demonstratably false.
I find it odd that you are so resigned to the idea that the government has provided two choices for you, and you must choose one or the other. Dos it matter if the choices are even legal, or moral? Does it matter if they violate your rights? Does it even matter what the choices are, or do you just go along with the mentality of "Well, if I don't do what they tell me to do, they're going to punish me." What if the two choices are vaccine, or arrest? Are you still fine with that?
crbutler wrote:Your understanding of the risk as you see it is one thing- but everyone I know who has gotten sick of it has changed their minds as far as risk. If you got significantly ill, would you change your mind?
No I would not. I mentioned earlier that my argument is about freedom. Me personally getting the virus has no bearing on that. Do you not understand principles?
crbutler wrote:And if so, and you feel it is so insignificant, how can you object to having to pay your costs of care out of pocket if the odds of getting it are remote, and your odds of getting significantly ill are even less?
If it's about the financial burden on society, why is the coronavirus different than other health issues? You're a doctor, what impact does obesity have on our cost of health care in the US? Diabetes? High blood pressure? High cholesterol? Smoking? Drinking? We all know that these issues are hugely expensive, and largely preventable/controllable. Many (not all) people continue in these conditions without doing anything to improve them, and cause much strain on the health care system. Why is the argument any different for those?
crbutler wrote:As to your final question, first off, I’d have wished we said only proven methodology will be utilized for mandates and done so. Unfortunately, people being people, I don’t think we would have done anything differently given the polarized world we are in.
We should avoid doing things like going to work/school/church when we don’t feel well.
Agreed.
crbutler wrote:If everyone exercised common sense, it would likely not be as big an issue. Unfortunately I don’t think that will happen any time soon. People are fundamentally too selfish.
If we don’t line you up and force vaccines, but rather say that businesses can exclude those without proof of immunity (which is almost certainly going to happen for international travel, as an example); refuse public accommodations without proof, and have financial disincentives to not getting it, you don’t have to get it, but it will require you having a pretty strong belief to put up with the obstacles.
I think 95% of people will get it if it’s easier to get it than not.
Well, thanks for being honest about how you'd like to see this go down.