Vaccination Cards

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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby Erud on Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:39 pm

LarryFlew wrote:Think Dr. CRButler he is pointing out that not all people at risk can get the shot due to their current illness.

While it would kill me I am eligible for the shot. 78 year old military friend is doing chemo (which is working) won't be able to get a shot for 6 months after he is done ( in a week). Some diabetics also can't get the shot. I'm sure there are more.


Ok, but why would these people with severely compromised immune systems be out in public, where they are at increased risk of getting the virus?
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby LarryFlew on Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:12 pm

Erud wrote:
LarryFlew wrote:Think Dr. CRButler he is pointing out that not all people at risk can get the shot due to their current illness.

While it would kill me I am eligible for the shot. 78 year old military friend is doing chemo (which is working) won't be able to get a shot for 6 months after he is done ( in a week). Some diabetics also can't get the shot. I'm sure there are more.


Ok, but why would these people with severely compromised immune systems be out in public, where they are at increased risk of getting the virus?


In general I have been a stay at home since the beginning, Even had our 37 foot 5th wheel shipped from AZ rather than bring it home during the beginning in April. For the most part we have everything shipped or pick up at walmart etc, however not everything can be done from home. IE Menards type projects require looking at more than a crappy catalog picture. You can't totally be a hermit with no contact at all or I would be until either it's over and I missed a year or more of life or the vaccine is here and works.

Imagine a shooter that can't go and shoot, a poker player than can't go and play etc etc. At almost 73 Terminal boredom is not how I want to spend the last years of my life for sure.

My 78 year old buddy can't have his chemo at home. Need all the help people are willing to give for sure.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby Erud on Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:38 pm

crbutler wrote:Primary care physician.

There are a considerable number of folks who are not able to get the shots- immune deficient folks might not respond- and so forth.

Your claim that you are taking responsibility for your exposure level is so far not showing much effectiveness on a national level. You never go to a business or health care facility, etc?


Sure, I go to all kinds of places, though not nearly as many as I used to go. If I were worried about contracting the coronavirus simply by being out in public, I probably wouldn't. I know people who literally have not been anywhere since march, ad they don't plan to until there is a vaccine. They get their groceries delivered, and occasionally order take out. They have a 6-year old son who hasn't seen another kid since February. While I think that is horribly misguided and extremely sad, I respect that they are doing what they believe is best. No one in their household has contracted the coronavirus. No one in mine has either. My argument is really not about effectiveness, it's about freedom. I find this sentence the most interesting of your reply:

"If the disease was not communicable through casual contact, I would be all for the vaccine being entirely up to your discretion, even though it may have some societal monetary costs."


Should I take this to mean that you do not want the vaccine to be up to an individual's discretion? You want people to be forced by the government into involuntary and unwanted medical treatment? I have to say, something about that just doesn't feel very "American"...

As to your earlier argument about my fist and your nose, I'm not swinging anything. I'm just going about my normal life, minding my own business. Your scenario is more akin to someone going into a boxing gym, inserting their face in between a training fighter's fist and the heavy bag, then filing assault charges when the inevitable happens.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby crbutler on Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:27 pm

The topic (I thought) is whether or not one should have to prove vaccination status to access certain things.

If we are supposed to demonstrate vaccination to go to school, etc, then I have no issue with private business deciding no vaccine, no service. Lots of folks make up BS religious excuses because they don’t want to.

Happens to me all the time at work - I have to demonstrate that I have complied with all my required vaccines. I chose to work, I gotta show the vaccination record. Are you willing to forgo the gym in order to look not get a COVID shot?

When I started training we did 3-4 LP’s on kids a night to rule out meningitis. Now, we do 1-2 a week typically- and usually in a kid whose parents think vaccines cause autism. All due to having meningococcal vaccine.

My point being, if we decide that you should be allowed to decide if an act that protects others from disease is reasonable, then you ought to be responsible for spreading it if you refuse. Statistically, at least short term, you are being unreasonable.

You more or less said that you should be allowed to say no, and the rest of us pay for it if you were wrong.

Frankly, I’m more concerned that despite me getting vaccinated, I will still have to comply with shutdowns because folks like you think the risk from a vaccine is worse than the risk from COVID, and resist vaccination; and the government’s busybodies will use it to keep things shut down.

I’m all for letting people make up their own minds, as long as it’s not someone else’s problem to clean up the mess. Given that I’ve been exposed to this crap daily at work, have a new president that is going to raise my taxes based on fearful folks voting for more protection because the current guy “killed over 200,000 Americans,” and I don’t get the stimulus that I am paying for; I’d like to see some responsibility for actions on the part of the population.

If we voted for more intervention, everyone better have skin in the game.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby BigBlue on Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:29 pm

crbutler wrote:My major point is that everyone wants to exempt themselves from a vaccine and cites personal responsibility as to their reasoning.

The problem as far as that goes is the major reason for vaccination is both protection for yourself and developing here immunity so as to protect the relative few who either cannot use a vaccine or are compromised so that they will develop severe illness.

The problem with you saying “my risks are low” is that if you do get the disease, you are going to expose lots of others unknowingly, and there is no way for you to be responsible for the results of your actions. Who knows if the guy behind you in line is a diabetic and now is near fatally ill because of your choice?



The problem is with the 'wear a mask to save others' or 'get vaccinated to save others' mantra is that we have never, ever done that in our society. And taking things to that level of liability is something with vast implications. It might start with Covid today but will extend to anything and everything in the future. We will be forever wearing masks and going through all sorts of gyrations "just to be careful to not impact others". And that is a sea change in society that is just not feasible. You apparently don't fathom the amount of restrictions that will come from this that will be placed on a person's rights. Before long, it won't just be a requirement to take those actions, but people will start getting sued or arrested for not being careful enough. And people will be prevented from doing normal things if they cannot prove they are vaccinated.

This change comes from the notion that an asymptomatic person just might, maybe be a carrier of a disease. I doubt whether that's any more true of Covid than any other disease/germ we've ever dealt with commonly. And we haven't needed these significant changes prior to now. I will not be a person who enables this massive change because its implications are too great.

If you're sick stay home. If you're at high risk take precautions that matter to your situation. If you're well we get back to normal.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby BigBlue on Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:36 pm

Erud wrote:As to your earlier argument about my fist and your nose, I'm not swinging anything. I'm just going about my normal life, minding my own business. Your scenario is more akin to someone going into a boxing gym, inserting their face in between a training fighter's fist and the heavy bag, then filing assault charges when the inevitable happens.


Exactly. You cannot assign blame to someone who is going about normal life doing things that were 100% normal and typical prior to 2020 in the same way you can an egregious action that causes harm like hitting someone, driving drunk or shooting a gun in a city neighborhood. We cannot ever allow normal activities to become considered as negligent. That's a line we cannot cross.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby Erud on Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:54 pm

crbutler wrote:The topic (I thought) is whether or not one should have to prove vaccination status to access certain things.

If we are supposed to demonstrate vaccination to go to school, etc, then I have no issue with private business deciding no vaccine, no service. Lots of folks make up BS religious excuses because they don’t want to.

Happens to me all the time at work - I have to demonstrate that I have complied with all my required vaccines. I chose to work, I gotta show the vaccination record. Are you willing to forgo the gym in order to look not get a COVID shot?


Yeah, maybe. I suppose I'll make those decisions as the situations arise.

crbutler wrote:When I started training we did 3-4 LP’s on kids a night to rule out meningitis. Now, we do 1-2 a week typically- and usually in a kid whose parents think vaccines cause autism. All due to having meningococcal vaccine.

My point being, if we decide that you should be allowed to decide if an act that protects others from disease is reasonable, then you ought to be responsible for spreading it if you refuse.


Who decides that I'm responsible for spreading the coronavirus, and based on what? I am not currently ill in any way, and I am confident that I do not have the coronavirus. I suppose I could be one of the super-deadly "asymptomatic spreaders", but that seems pretty unlikely, unless we now just assume that everyone is. If I were sick, I'd stay home and away from people. I don't do anything that could reasonably be construed as putting people at risk. And again, there is currently no vaccine available, so should everyone be staying home entirely right now? Or does everyone just get a free pass from accountability for now? How does it work?


crbutler wrote:Statistically, at least short term, you are being unreasonable.

You more or less said that you should be allowed to say no, and the rest of us pay for it if you were wrong.


Man, to think that as an American citizen, I might need to be "allowed" to decide what gets put into my body. Or, it may just be decided for me. Crazy times we are living in.

crbutler wrote:Frankly, I’m more concerned that despite me getting vaccinated, I will still have to comply with shutdowns because folks like you think the risk from a vaccine is worse than the risk from COVID, and resist vaccination; and the government’s busybodies will use it to keep things shut down.


So instead, you'd prefer that the government busybodies be able to compel every free US citizen to subject themselves to a brand new vaccine, whether they want it or not? Gee, thanks Doc. I have no idea what the long-term risk from the vaccine is. I don't really see how anyone could, since it hasn't even been deployed yet. I believe the meningitis vaccine has been available since the 70's, so there is quite a bit more data out on that one. I do understand the risks of contracting the Coronavirus, and I accept them.

crbutler wrote:I’m all for letting people make up their own minds, as long as it’s not someone else’s problem to clean up the mess. Given that I’ve been exposed to this crap daily at work, have a new president that is going to raise my taxes based on fearful folks voting for more protection because the current guy “killed over 200,000 Americans,” and I don’t get the stimulus that I am paying for; I’d like to see some responsibility for actions on the part of the population.

If we voted for more intervention, everyone better have skin in the game.


This line of thinking is a long way from the principles our country was founded on.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby Erud on Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:56 pm

BigBlue wrote:
Erud wrote:As to your earlier argument about my fist and your nose, I'm not swinging anything. I'm just going about my normal life, minding my own business. Your scenario is more akin to someone going into a boxing gym, inserting their face in between a training fighter's fist and the heavy bag, then filing assault charges when the inevitable happens.


Exactly. You cannot assign blame to someone who is going about normal life doing things that were 100% normal and typical prior to 2020 in the same way you can an egregious action that causes harm like hitting someone, driving drunk or shooting a gun in a city neighborhood. We cannot ever allow normal activities to become considered as negligent. That's a line we cannot cross.


Exactly right. It's utterly astounding what Americans have come to accept as normal in just 9 short months.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby crbutler on Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:40 pm

Actually it’s very close to the thinking of the country at the time of founding.

You were responsible for your choices. If bad things came of your choices(or just bad luck), no one had to do anything to fix it but you. Medical care/emergency care (such as it was) had to be paid for. If you didn’t, you didn’t get it, except for charity care, which was also at the whim of the gifter.

If there was contagious illness, you were forcibly quarantined, and violence resulted from ducking quarantine. See leper colonies or plague houses. If a physician or justice of the peace decided you needed treatment once you presented, you were not allowed to leave if they felt you were a danger to either yourself or the public. What’s more, in those days treatment had very little basis in actual effectiveness (bleeding, leeches, arsenic, etc.).

Furthermore, until the 60’s, right of service was purely at the discretion of the provider.

My initial point was that personal responsibility is responsibility.

Now that we know what we do, what do you propose we do about someone doing what they did before 2020, like going in to work sick? Or deciding to go to the store sick?

It’s nonsensical that because we did it before, it’s safe now and no liability occurs. If you suspect what you are doing may increase risk for others, you are not being responsible.

You want to do what you always have, and expect the other guy to look out for you... all mandating financial consequences for refusal of the vaccine does is make you responsible for your choice. It gets out of the exception for your religious or other views, and makes you face mere financial ruin for refusal- it’s not use of force it’s just what happens if you chose to not get it.

Humans are lousy at self risk assessment and tolerance.

Mathematically, given what is known so far of the vaccine, your risk of getting and dying from COVID is significantly higher than the risk of dying or permanent injury from the vaccine. Long term studies will tell how long the vaccine protects you, but with the short term data, it’s still 90+% better than no vaccine. This vaccine has already had more proof of safety than the polio or smallpox vaccines had when they were mandated. Yet, you are convinced that it’s not safe enough for you to use because of an unknown risk. Why? Give a factual answer that involves actual risk numbers.

I personally feel that the intrusion of a forced vaccine is less than the intrusion of the current shutdown. Given the election results, the majority are going to insist something be done, and are forcing it. You can go all libertarian and say both are bad, but like voting libertarian it just results in someone else deciding what you will be forced to comply with.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby Erud on Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:03 pm

crbutler wrote:Actually it’s very close to the thinking of the country at the time of founding.

You were responsible for your choices. If bad things came of your choices(or just bad luck), no one had to do anything to fix it but you. Medical care/emergency care (such as it was) had to be paid for. If you didn’t, you didn’t get it, except for charity care, which was also at the whim of the gifter.



If there was contagious illness, you were forcibly quarantined, and violence resulted from ducking quarantine. See leper colonies or plague houses. If a physician or justice of the peace decided you needed treatment once you presented, you were not allowed to leave if they felt you were a danger to either yourself or the public. What’s more, in those days treatment had very little basis in actual effectiveness (bleeding, leeches, arsenic, etc.).

Furthermore, until the 60’s, right of service was purely at the discretion of the provider.

My initial point was that personal responsibility is responsibility.

Now that we know what we do, what do you propose we do about someone doing what they did before 2020, like going in to work sick? Or deciding to go to the store sick?

It’s nonsensical that because we did it before, it’s safe now and no liability occurs. If you suspect what you are doing may increase risk for others, you are not being responsible.

You want to do what you always have, and expect the other guy to look out for you... all mandating financial consequences for refusal of the vaccine does is make you responsible for your choice. It gets out of the exception for your religious or other views, and makes you face mere financial ruin for refusal- it’s not use of force it’s just what happens if you chose to not get it.

Humans are lousy at self risk assessment and tolerance.

Mathematically, given what is known so far of the vaccine, your risk of getting and dying from COVID is significantly higher than the risk of dying or permanent injury from the vaccine. Long term studies will tell how long the vaccine protects you, but with the short term data, it’s still 90+% better than no vaccine. This vaccine has already had more proof of safety than the polio or smallpox vaccines had when they were mandated. Yet, you are convinced that it’s not safe enough for you to use because of an unknown risk. Why? Give a factual answer that involves actual risk numbers.

I personally feel that the intrusion of a forced vaccine is less than the intrusion of the current shutdown. Given the election results, the majority are going to insist something be done, and are forcing it. You can go all libertarian and say both are bad, but like voting libertarian it just results in someone else deciding what you will be forced to comply with.


I very deliberately replied to all of your previous points in my last post. I also asked you a lot of specific questions, but you you rolled right past them. You are making a lot of assumptions about me and my reasons for not wanting the vaccine, and your preference for one government intrusion vs. another is not my concern.

I'll ask one of your questions back at you:

"Now that we know what we do, what do you propose we do about someone doing what they did before 2020, like going in to work sick? Or deciding to go to the store sick?"

I am genuinely interested in your response.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby crbutler on Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:52 pm

First, who decides if you have COVID or are spreading?

It isn’t a matter of who decides, it’s a matter of fact. You will likely not know until well after the fact. You can be asymptomatic for several days before symptoms, while shedding virus. That’s the basis for the stay at home order. Of course, it’s impossible to absolutely quarantine for prolonged periods of time.

It’s not reasonable to hold folks responsible for something that there is no choice in. The whole purpose of contact tracing is to let folks who have been exposed know so that they can take the highest level of precautions.

Responsibility would be doing things that you know are dangerous or not taking reasonable precautions that the average person would find appropriate.

If I went into a possible COVID case’s room without PPE, and then went to a grocery store, I would feel guilty about giving someone Covid. If you are going into a public gym and exercising regularly without a mask and keeping distance at all times, you are indulging in a high risk activity. Would you feel guilty if you caught it and gave it to another person in your home because your exercise took priority over their health? Not legal responsibility, but responsible? Legal liability is different, true.

I do think that once the vaccine is available and if it was offered and refused, because “I don’t think it’s worth the risk”, the average man would say you didn’t take the reasonable precaution.

As to your comment about American citizen getting a say in what you put in, that has been decided long ago. Try getting DDT, which as far as humans go, is one of the safest insecticides ever made... again, you are going to have a restriction, activities and mask continually or get a shot. Which is the bigger infringement on liberty?

I think that we have already proven that the average person demands something be done, even with no proof of effectiveness (masking, shutdown)... at least the vaccine has SOME proof of effectiveness. If we have to have one, might as well be the less daily intrusion one that works. Your contention that we have the choice of no intervention at all is demonstratably false.

Your understanding of the risk as you see it is one thing- but everyone I know who has gotten sick of it has changed their minds as far as risk. If you got significantly ill, would you change your mind?

And if so, and you feel it is so insignificant, how can you object to having to pay your costs of care out of pocket if the odds of getting it are remote, and your odds of getting significantly ill are even less?

As to your final question, first off, I’d have wished we said only proven methodology will be utilized for mandates and done so. Unfortunately, people being people, I don’t think we would have done anything differently given the polarized world we are in.

We should avoid doing things like going to work/school/church when we don’t feel well.

If everyone exercised common sense, it would likely not be as big an issue. Unfortunately I don’t think that will happen any time soon. People are fundamentally too selfish.

If we don’t line you up and force vaccines, but rather say that businesses can exclude those without proof of immunity (which is almost certainly going to happen for international travel, as an example); refuse public accommodations without proof, and have financial disincentives to not getting it, you don’t have to get it, but it will require you having a pretty strong belief to put up with the obstacles.

I think 95% of people will get it if it’s easier to get it than not.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby Holland&Holland on Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:30 pm

Ain’t socialism grand!
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby Rodentman on Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:04 pm

I can feel a little prick any time I want to without any hypodermic injection.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby Erud on Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:12 am

crbutler wrote:First, who decides if you have COVID or are spreading?

It isn’t a matter of who decides, it’s a matter of fact. You will likely not know until well after the fact. You can be asymptomatic for several days before symptoms, while shedding virus. That’s the basis for the stay at home order. Of course, it’s impossible to absolutely quarantine for prolonged periods of time.


So how is this any different from the situation that everyone in society is in right now? What about the asymptomatic spreaders, and what if I'm one of those? How do you identify that I was the one doing the spreading? Should we not be holding people accountable for acting irresponsibly any time they leave their homes for any reason?

crbutler wrote:It’s not reasonable to hold folks responsible for something that there is no choice in. The whole purpose of contact tracing is to let folks who have been exposed know so that they can take the highest level of precautions.


Sure. I actually was exposed about 5 weeks ago to someone who tested positive 2 days later. I found out 2 days after that, and I stayed away from people other than my wife for an additional 10 days.

crbutler wrote:Responsibility would be doing things that you know are dangerous or not taking reasonable precautions that the average person would find appropriate.


And you believe that I am doing that?

crbutler wrote:If I went into a possible COVID case’s room without PPE, and then went to a grocery store, I would feel guilty about giving someone Covid. If you are going into a public gym and exercising regularly without a mask and keeping distance at all times, you are indulging in a high risk activity. Would you feel guilty if you caught it and gave it to another person in your home because your exercise took priority over their health? Not legal responsibility, but responsible? Legal liability is different, true.


My wife is of the same mind on this as I am. We are aware of, and accept the risks of the coronavirus. It's just the 2 of us in our household. Neither of us belong to a gym, or do any of the "high-risk" activities you mention, so I think we are pretty safe.

crbutler wrote:I do think that once the vaccine is available and if it was offered and refused, because “I don’t think it’s worth the risk”, the average man would say you didn’t take the reasonable precaution.


I think you have not discussed this with enough "average" men. You are a doctor, and naturally that puts you in contact with a lot of sick people. It seems like that may have skewed your view of what the rest of society thinks about this issue.

crbutler wrote:As to your comment about American citizen getting a say in what you put in, that has been decided long ago. Try getting DDT, which as far as humans go, is one of the safest insecticides ever made... again, you are going to have a restriction, activities and mask continually or get a shot. Which is the bigger infringement on liberty?


The government preventing me from being able to acquire DDT is not anything like the government forcing me to take medical treatment that I do not want.

crbutler wrote:I think that we have already proven that the average person demands something be done, even with no proof of effectiveness (masking, shutdown)... at least the vaccine has SOME proof of effectiveness. If we have to have one, might as well be the less daily intrusion one that works. Your contention that we have the choice of no intervention at all is demonstratably false.


I find it odd that you are so resigned to the idea that the government has provided two choices for you, and you must choose one or the other. Dos it matter if the choices are even legal, or moral? Does it matter if they violate your rights? Does it even matter what the choices are, or do you just go along with the mentality of "Well, if I don't do what they tell me to do, they're going to punish me." What if the two choices are vaccine, or arrest? Are you still fine with that?

crbutler wrote:Your understanding of the risk as you see it is one thing- but everyone I know who has gotten sick of it has changed their minds as far as risk. If you got significantly ill, would you change your mind?


No I would not. I mentioned earlier that my argument is about freedom. Me personally getting the virus has no bearing on that. Do you not understand principles?

crbutler wrote:And if so, and you feel it is so insignificant, how can you object to having to pay your costs of care out of pocket if the odds of getting it are remote, and your odds of getting significantly ill are even less?


If it's about the financial burden on society, why is the coronavirus different than other health issues? You're a doctor, what impact does obesity have on our cost of health care in the US? Diabetes? High blood pressure? High cholesterol? Smoking? Drinking? We all know that these issues are hugely expensive, and largely preventable/controllable. Many (not all) people continue in these conditions without doing anything to improve them, and cause much strain on the health care system. Why is the argument any different for those?

crbutler wrote:As to your final question, first off, I’d have wished we said only proven methodology will be utilized for mandates and done so. Unfortunately, people being people, I don’t think we would have done anything differently given the polarized world we are in.

We should avoid doing things like going to work/school/church when we don’t feel well.


Agreed.

crbutler wrote:If everyone exercised common sense, it would likely not be as big an issue. Unfortunately I don’t think that will happen any time soon. People are fundamentally too selfish.

If we don’t line you up and force vaccines, but rather say that businesses can exclude those without proof of immunity (which is almost certainly going to happen for international travel, as an example); refuse public accommodations without proof, and have financial disincentives to not getting it, you don’t have to get it, but it will require you having a pretty strong belief to put up with the obstacles.

I think 95% of people will get it if it’s easier to get it than not.


Well, thanks for being honest about how you'd like to see this go down.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby BigBlue on Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:12 am

We've done nothing in the past like what you are describing. Covid is a disease similar to many others and is not orders of magnitude more deadly or more contagious. If we would not have this unprecedented push to test all sorts of people who have no symptoms the stats wouldn't be there to think Covid is 'so much more contagious' than other viruses. Conversely, if we tested tons of asymptomatic folks for flu, common cold, herpes, strep, etc. we'd think we were in some giant epidemic of each of them.

The picture is being manipulated in ways to make folks think Covid is something dramatically different and get people to accept changes in the way society works. This is a bad thing.
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