Vaccination Cards

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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby smurfman on Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:47 pm

crbutler wrote:My main reason for supporting a vaccination program with COVID is that I don’t see any way to stop the governor and MDH’s continued acts without it.


So, am I understanding this correctly - you are promoting vaccination for political rather than medical reasons? That there are no other routes to take to stop the actions of the governor and MDH other than to do as they bid?

That is disturbing at many levels.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby Lumpy on Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:00 pm

BigBlue wrote:The problem is with the 'wear a mask to save others' or 'get vaccinated to save others' mantra is that we have never, ever done that in our society. And taking things to that level of liability is something with vast implications. It might start with Covid today but will extend to anything and everything in the future. We will be forever wearing masks and going through all sorts of gyrations "just to be careful to not impact others". And that is a sea change in society that is just not feasible. You apparently don't fathom the amount of restrictions that will come from this that will be placed on a person's rights. Before long, it won't just be a requirement to take those actions, but people will start getting sued or arrested for not being careful enough. And people will be prevented from doing normal things if they cannot prove they are vaccinated.


This is a general and ever-increasing problem in our society: what happens when everything you do impacts others? When nothing's private or personal? When your liability is limitless and your obligations boundless?
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby Holland&Holland on Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:24 pm

crbutler wrote:Read the papers.

It’s a safe as they claim it to be.

What level of safety are you comparing it to?

I’d say it’s safer from what they have so far than the Yellow Fever vaccine.

Fundamentally what the scientific argument is is over how long to test something before declaring it safe enough to use in the US. “Normal” vaccines take many years here in the US, and then you get kooks like Pamela Anderson forwarding unfounded conspiracy theories and many buy in to it (Autism and vaccine links).

My main reason for supporting a vaccination program with COVID is that I don’t see any way to stop the governor and MDH’s continued acts without it.

I have said I will be getting it, so obviously I don’t feel it’s something that is that risky.

I misunderstood. I didn’t realize we were talking about vaccinating politicians. Go for it.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby BigBlue on Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:26 pm

Lumpy wrote:This is a general and ever-increasing problem in our society: what happens when everything you do impacts others? When nothing's private or personal? When your liability is limitless and your obligations boundless?


Yes, it is ever-increasing. And that is disturbing. The mindset of the left seems to be the opposite of personal responsibility... that everyone else is at fault for things that happen to a person, except the person. It is one of those fundamental differences of opinion that keep driving the sides further apart as they get believed more extremely.

If a person is not knowingly sick AND intentionally trying to infect another by outright actions like intentionally sneezing or coughing on someone else or spitting in their food then they should not be held accountable for someone else getting sick. This is akin to the idea of someone with AIDS who knows they have it intentionally not telling their partner about it and not using protection. One the flip side, someone who did not know they had AIDS should never be liable for passing it along inadvertently even though wearing a condom would potentially prevent it.

crbutler wrote:My main reason for supporting a vaccination program with COVID is that I don’t see any way to stop the governor and MDH’s continued acts without it.


If pushing a vaccination program with forced/coerced vaccinations is the only way you can think of to stop the gov's tyranny then you aren't thinking hard enough.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby rtk on Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:43 am

The Left = Always the victim
The sky is falling, the sky is falling....(Chicken Little)
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby GoodDoctor on Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:25 am

BigBlue wrote:
GoodDoctor wrote:This is true, and we are very cognizant of the practice of obtaining informed consent before proceeding. But physicians in general have a philosophical problem with un-informed non-consent. When we seek informed consent, we provide the medical reasons for proceeding, the available medical alternatives, associated risk/benefit for proceeding, and associated risk/benefit for not proceeding. What physicians have is a philosophical problem with non-consent due to a patient's non-medical decision tree. Physicians are not out to deny folks their freedoms or restrict their behavior, we have seen all of the ugly sides of disease processes, study pathophysiology for our entire lifetimes, advance our understanding of these conditions and try to come up with better ways of treating disease, preventing disease. We just hope and expect, probably incorrectly, that patients ought to make medically informed decisions in their refusals.


Not everyone's decisions on medical issues are based entirely on health, nor are they always un-informed when non-consent is occurring. Perhaps what you may not be seeing is that some people's decision tree involves factors that don't relate directly to health. You're a doctor and apparently your ultimate goal is keeping people healthy. Some may prioritize other things in their life or even the state of their country over their own health. To minimize that and label it as uninformed is unfair to them and at odds with our nation's foundation of liberty. Their priorities may not be your priorities.

Would you similarly fault a person with what is likely a terminal cancer if they chose to stay home and die around their family instead of be hospitalized with a treatment that might help them but they stand a chance of dying there? From your statements I'd suspect you would be disappointed with that "ill-informed" decision. But I would see their point.


My comment had nothing to do with me or any other physicians finding fault with a person who refused treatment because they followed a non-medical decision tree. I was only trying to enlighten the philosophical difficulty physicians have when encountering such decision trees. We are not finding fault with any patient, we are not angry with such decisions, we understand where they are coming from, BUT . . . such decisions are difficult for us to evaluate in light of what we know about what ever we are trying to treat, which is based on our knowledge and experience and why we offer that treatment and provide the accompanying informed consent. Physicians work under conditions that are, in the broadest sense, demanding decisions dealing with life and death and all untoward conditions in-between on a daily basis. We have all seen good outcomes and bad outcomes, and a lot of all of the in-between outcomes. So, philosophically, when a physician offers a medical treatment based on their knowledge and experience, explains that to the patient by providing informed consent, and the patient declines based on a non-medical decision tree, the physician is not angry with the refusal, not dumbfounded by the refusal, and is not blaming or finding fault with the decision because a decision based on non-medically related factors is just plain outside the scope of the physician's medical knowledge, experience and focus.

Your example concerning a terminal cancer patient's choice to stay home and die and whether I or any physician would fault that decision only shows how extraordinarily un-informed you are. Ever heard of hospice?
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby BigBlue on Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:17 am

GoodDoctor wrote:My comment had nothing to do with me or any other physicians finding fault with a person who refused treatment because they followed a non-medical decision tree. I was only trying to enlighten the philosophical difficulty physicians have when encountering such decision trees. We are not finding fault with any patient, we are not angry with such decisions, we understand where they are coming from, BUT . . . such decisions are difficult for us to evaluate in light of what we know about what ever we are trying to treat, which is based on our knowledge and experience and why we offer that treatment and provide the accompanying informed consent. Physicians work under conditions that are, in the broadest sense, demanding decisions dealing with life and death and all untoward conditions in-between on a daily basis. We have all seen good outcomes and bad outcomes, and a lot of all of the in-between outcomes. So, philosophically, when a physician offers a medical treatment based on their knowledge and experience, explains that to the patient by providing informed consent, and the patient declines based on a non-medical decision tree, the physician is not angry with the refusal, not dumbfounded by the refusal, and is not blaming or finding fault with the decision because a decision based on non-medically related factors is just plain outside the scope of the physician's medical knowledge, experience and focus.

Your example concerning a terminal cancer patient's choice to stay home and die and whether I or any physician would fault that decision only shows how extraordinarily un-informed you are. Ever heard of hospice?


Sure sounded like you were not understanding that not all decisions are totally based on medical criteria and that you were disappointed if their decisions deviated from the medical care perspective.

As for hospice, that is typically end-of-life care, not a different way to get a treatment like a cancer treatment. That's not the situation I was describing. Thanks for bringing personal insults into the conversation though.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby crbutler on Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:04 pm

Perhaps I foolishly thought this was a political discussion.

Either we get personal responsibility with all that entails, or we get mandates.

Too many want some of both without the downsides of either.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby BigBlue on Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:49 pm

crbutler wrote:Perhaps I foolishly thought this was a political discussion.

Either we get personal responsibility with all that entails, or we get mandates.

Too many want some of both without the downsides of either.


Personal responsibility within the norms our society has known for the last 50+ years is what we need and can have. Expanding the definition of 'liability' to mean things it never did is where we need to draw the line. Nobody in my lifetime has ever been held responsible for going about their normal business while unknowingly carrying the flu virus (or common cold or strep throat or ...) and having someone else in the vicinity get sick.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby yukonjasper on Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:38 am

Collectivism, group think, conformity, whatever you want to label it is a Socialist ideal. The State finds it easier to manage the collective because there is no dissent and the common wisdom is universal which makes advancing an agenda easier. For the most part, I believe, this is done with good intentions of being the best for all. The myopic approach rejects dissent because it conflicts with the limited view. There is no alternative view, in there opinion. You are wrong and need to be dealt with for the good of the collective.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby Holland&Holland on Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:50 pm

UK is now reporting side effects for people with severe allergies and recommending they not take the vaccine and wait for herd immunity. Hmmm, yes doc this is a well studied vaccine.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby linksep on Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:38 am

MJY65 wrote:
linksep wrote:I'll say it again, there's only 2 reasons why a medical professional would preach masks for the 'Rona and they're both bad.


Don't keep us in suspense.


If you're unwilling to figure it out (it's real easy) then you were made to be ruled.

Do you think that maybe at any time in the last hundred years prior to #Plandemic anyone has ever thought to study whether masks would reduce the transmission of viruses? I'm betting that probably nobody ever thought of that prior to 2020......
Science: noun, Whatever answer will help to advance communism.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby xd ED on Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:41 am

linksep wrote:
MJY65 wrote:
linksep wrote:I'll say it again, there's only 2 reasons why a medical professional would preach masks for the 'Rona and they're both bad.


Don't keep us in suspense.


If you're unwilling to figure it out (it's real easy) then you were made to be ruled.

Do you think that maybe at any time in the last hundred years prior to #Plandemic anyone has ever thought to study whether masks would reduce the transmission of viruses? I'm betting that probably nobody ever thought of that prior to 2020......


The untold origin story of the N95 mask

How did a flimsy polymer cup become the most significant health device of the 21st century? It all started in 1910 with a little-known doctor who wanted to save the world from one of the worst diseases ever known.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby LarryFlew on Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:04 pm

Awesome read. Thanks.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby MJY65 on Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:43 pm

^^^^^^^

Yes. A fitted N95 is an entirely different deal than a bandana below your nose. When people say "masks don't work"......it depends.
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