Vaccination Cards

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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby crbutler on Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:09 am

I do understand principle, and can sympathize with it. But it’s not really a winning fight. The restriction that the various governors have done show that.

I don’t really want to force the COVID vaccine, but I’d rather force that continue with our current mess. I had more questionable vaccines in ROTC than this one.

You and your wife may say now that you accept the risk of Covid, but I’ve yet to see someone keep that level of faith once they or a loved one ended up in the icu.

And forced treatment and confinement over disease have a long history in the US.

If you don’t think we haven’t forced compliance with vaccination in the past, you don’t know the history that well. Polio was forced at first, as was smallpox.

This isn’t new, we often force treatments, with the caveat of “due process of law”. Look up the quarantine laws. Or for that matter, look up the mental health commitment laws and in MN the Jarvis hearing.

I do agree that there have been other diseases that have been similar, or perhaps worse that we have not indulged in this level of mass hysteria. I’d gladly see laws changed, but I’m arguing with what is currently in place and apparently agreed to (so far the state Supreme Court hasn’t shut down the governor’s emergency declarations even though it’s been the better part of a year...
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby BigBlue on Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:08 pm

In the past, the times those actions were used were with diseases that were extreme and the illnesses were difficult to treat or mitigate. Covid has NOT turned out to be something that is orders of magnitude worse than the normal flu or other viruses. Yes, it is impactful and new, but it is not worthy of the extreme measures you describe from the past. That vast majority of folks who 'have' it are asymptomatic or have very minor issues is evidence of that. Also, the mortality is being inflated because of the massively increased testing and attributing any death where a person tests positive or has symptoms that "may indicate" Covid. This was never done in the past for flu or other illness.

In some ways, using the forced treatment or confinement examples of the past is like saying that the Japanese internment camps are a reason to do something similar now for Covid. After all, they thought it was a valid solution to risk. That was war and we look back and realize that it was wrong. The civil liberties enjoyed by society today are also far greater than what they were in the middle of the last century. It isn't even acceptable to lock up people coming into our country illegally, let alone locking up US citizens for doing things that have, prior to 2020, been considered normal.

Do I want someone I know to die of it? No. Do I want to get it? No. But far more than I worry about either of those I worry about our country fundamentally changing into something that will have lasting implications for generations to come. Some things are more important than others.

Doing the things you're talking about is akin to government coming around and saying "well, there have been a lot of mass shootings and crime lately so we're going to suspend carry permits for a while" and then "well, that didn't work, so we're going to take away everyones' guns for a while... it's for the good of society." It sounds like a wise idea and when viewed in a myopic way it looks reasonable. But when you assess the whole situation you realize that it is untenable because what you give up will never come back and the country we're left with will be fundamentally different. There are lines that cannot be crossed.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby LarryFlew on Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:50 pm

Having lived during the age of polio and the vaccinations for it I can attest to the fear of parents not wanting their kids to get it. It was a relief to have the forced vaccine for them. 2 people from my area got the disease and it was hard to watch their struggle. Had it not been for forced vaccination it would have been wide spread. Same with measles although no one that I know of in the area got it.

Biggest difference I see between now and then is the fact that we actually trusted the government at that time and it appeared the government was for the people which is vastly different today. The news was actually news and also trusted whereas today its a giant cluster F of political BS.

While this discussion is great and informative it's not much different than today's elections compared to elections in the 50's and 60's. We where a much more like minded people back then. Gun control wasn't much an issue for anyone but the few that got Saturday night special type bills passed (ploy to get Blacks not to afford guns). Ordered my first rifle from Montgomery Wards and picked it up at the local store when I was 14 without having a parent even required. Went to the hardware store and got a box of shells. Strapped on our backs and rode through town to the dump.

I see our closed country as a much worse problem than vaccine cards for sure even if the virus would do me in. We are pushing towards socialism WAY too fast and this isn't going to help.

It's relatively easy to see both sides of this story without getting too twitapated over either view. Somehow we need to get back together in the fight against the virus and the socialists and get the news to be actual news again. Can this happen in our lifetimes, I'm not too sure but we need to keep at it and get our kids to work at it and not be complacent and let the metro mentality take over.

Happy Holidays to all!!!!!!!!!!!
If you're having second thoughts you're two ahead of most Democrats
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby hammAR on Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:19 pm

Screenshot from 2020-12-08 12-55-57.png
Screenshot from 2020-12-08 12-55-57.png (186.78 KB) Viewed 4318 times
All men are created equal....It's what they do from there that matters!.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby crbutler on Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:20 pm

I’d beg to differ that the civil liberties we have now are much more than they were in the 50’s.

The biggest difference for improvement of civil liberties is the laws passed to ensure that the rules were enforced equally for all of any race, religion, sex, or sexual preference.

The actual liberties involved have decreased substantially.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby Lumpy on Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:28 pm

If the government mandates that businesses MUST demand proof of vaccination and turn away those without or else be shut down for violating public health codes, is that a different matter?
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby BigBlue on Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:45 pm

crbutler wrote:I’d beg to differ that the civil liberties we have now are much more than they were in the 50’s.

The biggest difference for improvement of civil liberties is the laws passed to ensure that the rules were enforced equally for all of any race, religion, sex, or sexual preference.

The actual liberties involved have decreased substantially.


True there. Some have been lost for sure, but the net increase is more because they are applied equally. My point was that people were generally used to being restricted back then if you factor in the views of women, minorities, etc.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:40 pm

Too tired to argue but someone who went to med school should understand the concept of a patients right to refuse medical care.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby linksep on Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:59 am

Holland&Holland wrote:...should understand...


Religious belief trumps all science and reason. A solid 20% of the country (maybe more) are Branch COVIDians and another 60% are apathetic beyond belief and will just go along to get along.

I'll say it again, there's only 2 reasons why a medical professional would preach masks for the 'Rona and they're both bad.
Science: noun, Whatever answer will help to advance communism.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby MJY65 on Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:53 am

linksep wrote:I'll say it again, there's only 2 reasons why a medical professional would preach masks for the 'Rona and they're both bad.



Don't keep us in suspense.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby GoodDoctor on Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:47 am

Holland&Holland wrote:Too tired to argue but someone who went to med school should understand the concept of a patients right to refuse medical care.



This is true, and we are very cognizant of the practice of obtaining informed consent before proceeding. But physicians in general have a philosophical problem with un-informed non-consent. When we seek informed consent, we provide the medical reasons for proceeding, the available medical alternatives, associated risk/benefit for proceeding, and associated risk/benefit for not proceeding. What physicians have is a philosophical problem with non-consent due to a patient's non-medical decision tree. Physicians are not out to deny folks their freedoms or restrict their behavior, we have seen all of the ugly sides of disease processes, study pathophysiology for our entire lifetimes, advance our understanding of these conditions and try to come up with better ways of treating disease, preventing disease. We just hope and expect, probably incorrectly, that patients ought to make medically informed decisions in their refusals.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby BigBlue on Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:19 am

GoodDoctor wrote:This is true, and we are very cognizant of the practice of obtaining informed consent before proceeding. But physicians in general have a philosophical problem with un-informed non-consent. When we seek informed consent, we provide the medical reasons for proceeding, the available medical alternatives, associated risk/benefit for proceeding, and associated risk/benefit for not proceeding. What physicians have is a philosophical problem with non-consent due to a patient's non-medical decision tree. Physicians are not out to deny folks their freedoms or restrict their behavior, we have seen all of the ugly sides of disease processes, study pathophysiology for our entire lifetimes, advance our understanding of these conditions and try to come up with better ways of treating disease, preventing disease. We just hope and expect, probably incorrectly, that patients ought to make medically informed decisions in their refusals.


Not everyone's decisions on medical issues are based entirely on health, nor are they always un-informed when non-consent is occurring. Perhaps what you may not be seeing is that some people's decision tree involves factors that don't relate directly to health. You're a doctor and apparently your ultimate goal is keeping people healthy. Some may prioritize other things in their life or even the state of their country over their own health. To minimize that and label it as uninformed is unfair to them and at odds with our nation's foundation of liberty. Their priorities may not be your priorities.

Would you similarly fault a person with what is likely a terminal cancer if they chose to stay home and die around their family instead of be hospitalized with a treatment that might help them but they stand a chance of dying there? From your statements I'd suspect you would be disappointed with that "ill-informed" decision. But I would see their point.
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby MJY65 on Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:27 pm

BigBlue wrote: You're a doctor and apparently your ultimate goal is keeping people healthy.


I'd sure hope so!
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby Holland&Holland on Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:33 pm

GoodDoctor wrote:
Holland&Holland wrote:Too tired to argue but someone who went to med school should understand the concept of a patients right to refuse medical care.



This is true, and we are very cognizant of the practice of obtaining informed consent before proceeding. But physicians in general have a philosophical problem with un-informed non-consent. When we seek informed consent, we provide the medical reasons for proceeding, the available medical alternatives, associated risk/benefit for proceeding, and associated risk/benefit for not proceeding. What physicians have is a philosophical problem with non-consent due to a patient's non-medical decision tree. Physicians are not out to deny folks their freedoms or restrict their behavior, we have seen all of the ugly sides of disease processes, study pathophysiology for our entire lifetimes, advance our understanding of these conditions and try to come up with better ways of treating disease, preventing disease. We just hope and expect, probably incorrectly, that patients ought to make medically informed decisions in their refusals.


So is this vaccine as safe as they claim it to be?
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Re: Vaccination Cards

Postby crbutler on Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:22 pm

Read the papers.

It’s a safe as they claim it to be.

What level of safety are you comparing it to?

I’d say it’s safer from what they have so far than the Yellow Fever vaccine.

Fundamentally what the scientific argument is is over how long to test something before declaring it safe enough to use in the US. “Normal” vaccines take many years here in the US, and then you get kooks like Pamela Anderson forwarding unfounded conspiracy theories and many buy in to it (Autism and vaccine links).

My main reason for supporting a vaccination program with COVID is that I don’t see any way to stop the governor and MDH’s continued acts without it.

I have said I will be getting it, so obviously I don’t feel it’s something that is that risky.
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