Vaccination Cards

[andrewP]

Everyone I know that gets a flu shot gets sick from it

I have gotten a flu shot every year for a lot of years running. The only negative effect I have ever noticed from it was injection site soreness/itching like any other intramuscular injection. I have never gotten sick from it.

[Bearcatrp]

I will wait to see how many of you keel over from the vaccine before deciding for myself.

Same here! I will wait!

[Holland&Holland]

Geez, a bunch of you went to Med school...

Most of my colleagues state that masks might help, and they don’t hurt. That’s the basis of the recommendation- weak to no proof, but verifiably no harm. Not being able to wear a mask (as opposed to don’t want to) would mean you are on permanent bipap or a vent. It’s mostly psychological. My 82 year old dad states he can’t... until he has to.

Now, admittedly, my opinion is that the masking stuff like we do in public (as opposed to the ICU) is placebo virtue signaling, but it’s been pushed by busybodies and politicians. The only prospective study was done regarding influenza in a hospital, and it showed most of these interventions as far as behaviors, except distance(which wasn’t tested) either did nothing or were so weak they showed no proof.

Vaccines work.

It’s impossible to catch the flu from the flu vaccine. While it depends on how well they predict the predominant strains, and their record isn’t perfect, they have proven it does reduce morbidity (how sick you get) and mortality (deaths) from influenza. Yeah, you might feel cruddy afterwards as your immune system responds.

Supplements haven’t been able to be proven to work anywhere near as well as vaccines, if at all, but I bet many naysayers for vaccines take those.

I’d be all for insurance be able to state if you refused the vaccine, then you must pay self pay for any care you get related to the disease. If we had personal responsibility for vaccine preventable illness, you’d be surprised how many would get the things.

Tetanus? It occasionally occurs in the US. I’ve seen one case in Africa. It’s essentially one of the most painful ways you can die. While here we can potentially survive it, you won’t be the same afterwards, and you will be in the ICU for months.

Shingles? It’s pretty painful, can cause a permanent neuropathy, and can cause blindness. It’s a reactivation of chicken pox. Of course, if you get chicken pox as an adult (as in never had it) it’s pretty high on the death rate too.

As to what will happen with COVID, who knows? But as long as the nervous nellys of the world run government, a high COVID rate will continue all these restrictions. Widespread use of the vaccine removes their objective rationale for ongoing control via fearmongering.

With the size of the vaccine test groups, I am pretty confident that short term risks are well known. It is also pretty well known that this vaccine has hefty side effects in that you have a pretty strong immune response that makes you feel sick. You are not getting the disease, but rather your body responds like you are. One unknown is how long it will stay effective. Maybe life long (probably not); maybe several months... that’s what long term follow up tells you as well.

Long term adverse effects? Well, do you want a 5 year shutdown? We just elected a president and majority of congress that think that way, and the senate is in doubt.

Don’t do something stupid to “stand up for my rights” that will actually have the opposite effect.

I’m one of the folks who are supposed to get it.

I will.

Do I think it’s going to keep everyone from getting the disease, or have huge changes in the death rate? No. But it will cut severity and the rate of infection.

Yes vaccines work. Will this one? We don't really know yet. Will it do more harm than good? We don't know that yet either. I have no problem taking a vaccine that has been shown to be safe and effective. Until it is, I will not.

[LarryFlew]

Geez, a bunch of you went to Med school...

Vaccines work.

It’s impossible to catch the flu from the flu vaccine. While it depends on how well they predict the predominant strains, and their record isn’t perfect, they have proven it does reduce morbidity (how sick you get) and mortality (deaths) from influenza. Yeah, you might feel cruddy afterwards as your immune system responds.

Shingles? It’s pretty painful, can cause a permanent neuropathy, and can cause blindness. It’s a reactivation of chicken pox. Of course, if you get chicken pox as an adult (as in never had it) it’s pretty high on the death rate too.

Can't be bitten by a dead animal. Shingles really suck - been there. Flu shots for over 20 years never a sniffle after the shot.

For me it's a die if you get it so I'll take my shots.

[crbutler]

The early reports show 90% or better protection with no major adverse events.

The two questions are how long it will be effective for and what long term issues might there be. This vaccine has already been tested on more people than most.

[Holland&Holland]

The early reports show 90% or better protection with no major adverse events.

The two questions are how long it will be effective for and what long term issues might there be. This vaccine has already been tested on more people than most.

Time has a funny way of actually needing to pass before it has happened.

[Erud]

I’d be all for insurance be able to state if you refused the vaccine, then you must pay self pay for any care you get related to the disease. If we had personal responsibility for vaccine preventable illness, you’d be surprised how many would get the things.

Interesting thinking. Would you likewise support auto insurance companies to be able to state that if you refused to wear a helmet while driving, you must self pay for any care you receive relating to head injury suffered in a car accident? I think we would all have to agree that helmet use would greatly reduce the incidence and severity of car crash head injuries, thereby lowering overall insurance costs for all.

I am in my mid-40’s, and have no comorbidities. I exercise regularly, and manage my weight. I eat reasonably well, and I don’t drink or smoke. I don’t get sick very often. I look at the MN department of Health website pretty regularly, and I just can’t get myself too excited about the numbers of cases/deaths reported. The mortality rate is extremely low, then climbs as age increases. Not coincidentally, that is how death rates by any cause track. Every day you live brings you one closer to death, and old people die a lot more frequently than young people. I’ve known roughly a dozen people that have tested positive for Covid, with ages ranging from 20 to 76. Only one of them (age 24) had any symptoms more serious than regular cold/flu-type stuff, and several didn’t even realize they had it at all. I’m really not concerned at all by the possibility of getting this virus. If I do get it, it is almost statistically impossible that I suffer any serious effects from it. I’ve been sick plenty of times in my life, and while I don’t enjoy it, I’m not afraid of getting sick another time. I’d take the proper measures to avoid spreading it, do what I needed to do to recover, then come out the other side and get back on with my life. Based on the above, along with the unknown long-term effects, I am not interested in any vaccine at this point. That should be my choice, and no one else’s business. In theory, anyone who gets the vaccine will be immune from the virus, so why should anyone care whether I am vaccinated or not? And yet, people certainly will care.

[BigBlue]

Most of my colleagues state that masks might help, and they don’t hurt. That’s the basis of the recommendation- weak to no proof, but verifiably no harm. Not being able to wear a mask (as opposed to don’t want to) would mean you are on permanent bipap or a vent. It’s mostly psychological. My 82 year old dad states he can’t... until he has to.

Now, admittedly, my opinion is that the masking stuff like we do in public (as opposed to the ICU) is placebo virtue signaling, but it’s been pushed by busybodies and politicians. The only prospective study was done regarding influenza in a hospital, and it showed most of these interventions as far as behaviors, except distance(which wasn’t tested) either did nothing or were so weak they showed no proof.

The problem with going along with the all-but-useless mask wearing is that it is the "camel's nose under the tent". When folks accede to doing it because "there really is no harm and it makes people feel better, so why not?" then it just makes it easier for the next requirement to be forced upon people. This is, in my opinion, very similar to gun control. It's just "one little thing" until it is 10 little things and 3 major things. If people don't push back against the requirements now it will be exponentially more difficult later. Such as when they want to issue 'vaccine ID cards' and then prevent you from entering a store or a government office building when you don't show them. Or when they want to force people to put a contact tracing app on your phone.

Vaccines work.

It’s impossible to catch the flu from the flu vaccine. While it depends on how well they predict the predominant strains, and their record isn’t perfect, they have proven it does reduce morbidity (how sick you get) and mortality (deaths) from influenza. Yeah, you might feel cruddy afterwards as your immune system responds.

It sure is weird how many people end up sick after getting a flu shot, and not just 'feel cruddy'. Sure, they might not catch the flu from the vaccine but it seems to knock you down enough that whatever else is around you can hit you hard while your body is adapting to the vaccine. Numerous people I know have been 'out of work' level sick the week following a flu shot during the past 5+ years.

[westhope]

I sure wish a vaccine was available several months ago. I'm 69, overweight but otherwise no health problems. I spent 9 days in the hospital on a respirator. Three weeks at home on oxygen. I still have slight pneumonia. I still get exhausted easily.

Medicine is not perfect. Life has risks. Choose wisely.

Masks are almost useless (except N95). "Social Distancing" does some good. Government is promoting these because they want to show they are "doing something" to protect us.

[LarryFlew]

I sure wish a vaccine was available several months ago. I'm 69, overweight but otherwise no health problems. I spent 9 days in the hospital on a respirator. Three weeks at home on oxygen. I still have slight pneumonia. I still get exhausted easily.

Medicine is not perfect. Life has risks. Choose wisely.

Masks are almost useless (except N95). "Social Distancing" does some good. Government is promoting these because they want to show they are "doing something" to protect us.

Feel for you for sure. Glad it didn't take you out but sorry you have to live with where you are now, Been there for 2 years since some major emergency surgery.

On the other hand it is a sneaky disease, my 49 year old son (never masker) tested positive and had a little breathing issue but in his case diarrhea was his worst symptom. Best past it by 2 weeks and no left over problems.

[crbutler]

Erud,

My major point is that everyone wants to exempt themselves from a vaccine and cites personal responsibility as to their reasoning.

The problem as far as that goes is the major reason for vaccination is both protection for yourself and developing here immunity so as to protect the relative few who either cannot use a vaccine or are compromised so that they will develop severe illness.

The problem with you saying “my risks are low” is that if you do get the disease, you are going to expose lots of others unknowingly, and there is no way for you to be responsible for the results of your actions. Who knows if the guy behind you in line is a diabetic and now is near fatally ill because of your choice?

With driving, whoever caused the accident is supposedly held accountable.

If you were driving in a race car and hit your head without protection, yeah you should be liable for your acts.

My thoughts on making you liable for paying your own way when you choose to indulge in claiming self responsibility is to put some teeth in your decision tree.

If you make the above mentioned calculus, and feel it’s not a significant risk, and then you were wrong, well, you are being responsible for your own actions; it’s not the same as gun violence in that you can determine responsibility for misuse there and if you misbehaved with a gun, you do pay the price for your behavior. The issue with COVID is that while your risk as a healthy person is very small, the price tag if you are wrong is very high, and the taxpayer is likely on the hook for your “self responsibility”.

Look at the number of kids whose parents refuse to vaccinate them due to their beliefs. If there were some teeth to their choices, I suspect the number of noncompliant kids would be drastically smaller.

Doing what I do for a living, I have seen quite a few people who say that they will accept the risk for bad behaviors, and then have the collective group pay through the nose to (usually ineffectually) try and fix what they did to themselves, and claim that because they paid taxes, they have a right...

The old saw about rights is yours stop where my nose begins... vaccinations are one of the few cases where you can make actual nuts and bolts numerical arguments about causation and prevention.

[Erud]

Erud,

My major point is that everyone wants to exempt themselves from a vaccine and cites personal responsibility as to their reasoning.

The problem as far as that goes is the major reason for vaccination is both protection for yourself and developing here immunity so as to protect the relative few who either cannot use a vaccine or are compromised so that they will develop severe illness.

The problem with you saying “my risks are low” is that if you do get the disease, you are going to expose lots of others unknowingly, and there is no way for you to be responsible for the results of your actions. Who knows if the guy behind you in line is a diabetic and now is near fatally ill because of your choice?

With driving, whoever caused the accident is supposedly held accountable.

If you were driving in a race car and hit your head without protection, yeah you should be liable for your acts.

My thoughts on making you liable for paying your own way when you choose to indulge in claiming self responsibility is to put some teeth in your decision tree.

If you make the above mentioned calculus, and feel it’s not a significant risk, and then you were wrong, well, you are being responsible for your own actions; it’s not the same as gun violence in that you can determine responsibility for misuse there and if you misbehaved with a gun, you do pay the price for your behavior. The issue with COVID is that while your risk as a healthy person is very small, the price tag if you are wrong is very high, and the taxpayer is likely on the hook for your “self responsibility”.

Look at the number of kids whose parents refuse to vaccinate them due to their beliefs. If there were some teeth to their choices, I suspect the number of noncompliant kids would be drastically smaller.

Doing what I do for a living, I have seen quite a few people who say that they will accept the risk for bad behaviors, and then have the collective group pay through the nose to (usually ineffectually) try and fix what they did to themselves, and claim that because they paid taxes, they have a right...

The old saw about rights is yours stop where my nose begins... vaccinations are one of the few cases where you can make actual nuts and bolts numerical arguments about causation and prevention.

I guess I must not understand how this works, and I have several questions. Wouldn't we also reach the famed "herd immunity" from more people getting the virus? If someone gets the vaccine and I don't, why would they be getting the virus from me? Shouldn't the vaccine prevent that? Why is me deciding that I don't want a vaccine injected into me a "bad behavior"? Life is full of risks, and the risk of contracting coronavirus is real. If someone is not comfortable with that risk, they really shouldn't be out in public. They can blame someone else for exposing them, but at the end of the day if they stayed away from everyone, the risk would be close to zero. Since there is currently no vaccine, is it safe to assume that people who feel this way are already doing this?

Control your own level of exposure, isn't that the ultimate expression of personal responsibility?

What do you do for a living?

[LarryFlew]

Think Dr. CRButler he is pointing out that not all people at risk can get the shot due to their current illness.

While it would kill me I am eligible for the shot. 78 year old military friend is doing chemo (which is working) won't be able to get a shot for 6 months after he is done ( in a week). Some diabetics also can't get the shot. I'm sure there are more.

My 49 year old son (never masker) is a bar guy and I'm sure he passed it on before he had symptoms.

[crbutler]

Primary care physician.

There are a considerable number of folks who are not able to get the shots- immune deficient folks might not respond- and so forth.

Your claim that you are taking responsibility for your exposure level is so far not showing much effectiveness on a national level. You never go to a business or health care facility, etc?

[crbutler]

As to herd immunity from infection, sure... but that would then expose all kinds of folks to it who don’t want to be.

Functionally, it’s pretty much impossible to not be around other people.

Ideally most of us get the vaccine so that we get to a high level of immunity throughout the population and the thing stops spreading. I’m convinced personally that the mitigation efforts with masking/shutdowns/etc have a bigger effect on the population as a whole than COVID, although it is certainly worse for those afflicted by it.

If you had a test positive case, that would be a reason to not vaccinate you until more is known.

If the disease was not communicable through casual contact, I would be all for the vaccine being entirely up to your discretion, even though it may have some societal monetary costs.

Look at all the treatments that are available in Europe that we have held off on due to overly bureaucratic FDA rules. That is the hold up with the FDA issue.

Things like artificial spinal disc replacement or some cancer therapies.

There is always a risk. Statistically the vaccine is a winner in pretty much every way we can prove for the indefinite term.

Yes, they may improve it to decrease side effects, but that does little to change the need.

Long term risks will likely not be known until the vaccine has been in general use for over a decade, anyhow.