Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

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Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby daleamn on Sun May 07, 2023 4:18 pm

We REGULARLY get confronted with folks claiming to be stanch 2nd Amendment supporters, many times touting their firearms expertise and proficiency that then come out and say stuff like "But I have to say I support more gun control because..."

Does anybody have an example of the opposite? There probably is one out there SOMEWHERE and if anybody has run across one could you post a link?
What I'm talking about is somebody saying something like "I definitely support stricter laws concerning guns but I can't support THIS particular gun law."
It would cheer me up a bit to think some on the other side would do this once in a while just to show they were giving some thought rather than just knee jerk reactions.
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Re: Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby Markemp on Sun May 07, 2023 6:45 pm

daleamn wrote:We REGULARLY get confronted with folks claiming to be stanch 2nd Amendment supporters, many times touting their firearms expertise and proficiency that then come out and say stuff like "But I have to say I support more gun control because..."

Does anybody have an example of the opposite? There probably is one out there SOMEWHERE and if anybody has run across one could you post a link?
What I'm talking about is somebody saying something like "I definitely support stricter laws concerning guns but I can't support THIS particular gun law."
It would cheer me up a bit to think some on the other side would do this once in a while just to show they were giving some thought rather than just knee jerk reactions.


Ok, this probably isn't my brightest decision, but since you asked nicely, I figured I can answer your question. I'm just here lurking for cheap ammo and interesting guns, but I guess I can dabble a bit on the political side.

I'm a registered democrat. I think Biden has been doing a good job, especially the master class of diplomacy leading up to the Ukraine war. It felt great to watch professional statesmen do their jobs. He actually had an infrastructure week that delivered a ton of benefits to the country, not just a phrase used to distract from the latest scandal.

I do support more restrictions on owning firearms, but there are some particular gun laws I don't support. For example, bans on semi-auto rifles is too far for me, but I do support some restrictions. Enhanced background checks (as has been discussed on this board) are fine to me, as well as red flag laws. I would consider an age limit for semi-auto rifles like 21, although the devil is in the details for that one. I'm also on the fence about licensing for some guns. I also support bans for people convicted of domestic violence, until their terms of probation are complete. Plus 5 years.

Literally everything above has caveats, but it's tough to keep this succinct without the whole post being pedantic. Like the ban for domestic violence. Maybe I would support bird guns, or they can have a range where they check their guns in/out for target shooting at the range. Who knows? It depends on the specifics, and I'd listen to the experts discuss the pros and cons to details like this. Maybe I'd be willing to compromise on something I think is just a nice to have in order to get something I really want (national carry licenses, removing suppressors from NFA, stuff like that).

I have a lot of friends who are politically in the same boat as me. I do know some people who are on the extremes of banning firearms of course. Overall the breakdown on what my friends overall will support breaks down similarly to America in general. Some want all guns banned, some want absolutely no restrictions at all, but the majority are for some limitations. I don't think that the democratic party as a whole doesn't really wants to ban guns. I see what happened to the GOP when Roe v Wade was overturned, and I think the democratic leadership realizes they don't want to be the dog that catches the car too. It's great to fund raise on but be wary of having the most extreme get their way.

You know what I think the biggest problem is? All the divisiveness. This site doesn't do a lot to listen, and I think it's a damn shame. It's not welcoming. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only democrat here, but you'd have to have pretty thick skin to want to stay here and participate when you're called a communist every day. Yes, some democrats are communists, but the vast majority aren't. Just like some members of the GOP are Nazis and think January 6th was just some "tourists" taking a self-guided tour. But we're all just people trying to take care of our friends and families. That's just my time on the soapbox, and I'm probably better of talking to a therapist about it than putting it out there, but as long as I have your attention... :)

So yah, that's where I sit. Proud veteran, capitalist, liberal "gun grabber" who just wants to shoot a deer and pheasant every now and then. I hope this answers your question, so I guess... AMA?
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Re: Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby bstrawse on Sun May 07, 2023 6:58 pm

Educate us -- since you offered and I signed off on litigation that led to the 18-20 year old restriction on permits to carry being struck down.

What is the "right" age limit for "certain" firearms and why - legally?

- Define the age
- Define which firearms
- Define the why in legal terms (not policy terms) - but why, constitutionally?

Thanks,
Bryan
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Re: Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby Markemp on Sun May 07, 2023 7:28 pm

It's just how I feel. The post asked for people who feel like they can support some laws and not others. That's kind of my whole point.

Legally... I guess if the Supreme Court can overturn RvW, they can overturn the ruling that found owning guns is an individual right. Or a constitutional amendment can be passed to overturn the 2nd amendment. Maybe we can take a page out of Texas's playbook and give people the right to sue gun owners for possessing or helping someone possess an AR-15. Maybe a state will let citizens sue gun manufacturers if their weapon is used in a mass shooting. The possibilities are endless, really.
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Re: Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby Sorcerer on Sun May 07, 2023 8:56 pm

So in your eyes when the guy in that Texas killed 7 people standing on the side of the road with his Range Rover you advocate suing the car company? The hammer company. The shovel manufacturer. See how foolish your position is. Most likely not.
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Re: Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby Markemp on Sun May 07, 2023 9:23 pm

Sorcerer wrote:So in your eyes when the guy in that Texas killed 7 people standing on the side of the road with his Range Rover you advocate suing the car company? The hammer company. The shovel manufacturer. See how foolish your position is. Most likely not.


Sure, why not? If someone wants to hire a lawyer to sue those companies and can get a jury to agree that they were responsible for those deaths, that is how the system works. Car companies have been successfully sued many times. If one of the victims of the Texas wants to sue the car company, it'll probably just make the lawyers rich until the case gets thrown out. I wouldn't "advocate" for it since it doesn't seem like in that particular situation the case would go anywhere. However, for gun related deaths, there are plenty of people who could viably be held responsible for a mass shooting, such as the FFL if they handwave the background check, or people who incited a person to shoot up a government building. You can sue anyone for anything at any time.

Related: I generally don't support laws that indemnify companies for negligent or risky behavior. Like the opioid manufacturers who dumped orders of magnitude more pills into an area that any reasonable person would use. They knew it was fueling the opioid epidemic, and I think the lawsuits against those companies were well founded.
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Re: Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby xd ED on Sun May 07, 2023 9:23 pm

Markemp wrote:It's just how I feel. The post asked for people who feel like they can support some laws and not others. That's kind of my whole point.

Legally... I guess if the Supreme Court can overturn RvW, they can overturn the ruling that found owning guns is an individual right. Or a constitutional amendment can be passed to overturn the 2nd amendment. Maybe we can take a page out of Texas's playbook and give people the right to sue gun owners for possessing or helping someone possess an AR-15. Maybe a state will let citizens sue gun manufacturers if their weapon is used in a mass shooting. The possibilities are endless, really.


The OP asked "...to show they were giving some thought rather than just knee jerk reactions."
You offered your 'feelings', sans any reasoning.
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Re: Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby daleamn on Mon May 08, 2023 1:40 am

Well color me shocked/gobsmacked/stopped in my tracks...I thought MAYBE someone would point me to a couple of obscure articles somewhere...I didn't think we'd have someone right here speak up.

Kudos for posting. You're going to get some pushback and as you already stated you knew you would but thanks for posting, a pretty brave thing to do but I think you've gotten some reasoned responses to your comments and nothing too untoward.

P.S. If you check some of my previous posts you'll see I'm very much against the Red Flag laws for PRACTICAL purposes but be aware that some legally well versed folk on the site have come up with excellent LEGAL reasons to oppose Red Flag laws.
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Re: Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby Jackpine Savage on Mon May 08, 2023 5:11 am

Markemp wrote: I think Biden has been doing a good job, especially the master class of diplomacy leading up to the Ukraine war. It felt great to watch professional statesmen do their jobs.


:lol: For sure. He ranks right up there with "Peace in our time" Neville Chamberlain. The withdrawal from Afghanistan was masterful too.

I think you must live in some type of an alternate reality where bad is good. Or are you actually a writer for the Babylon Bee?
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Re: Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby Markemp on Mon May 08, 2023 7:04 am

Jackpine Savage wrote: :lol: For sure. He ranks right up there with "Peace in our time" Neville Chamberlain. The withdrawal from Afghanistan was masterful too.

I think you must live in some type of an alternate reality where bad is good. Or are you actually a writer for the Babylon Bee?


Well, I did say AMA.

No, the withdrawal from Afghanistan was botched. I wish it went better. The first couple of years of the Biden presidency was decidedly meh. It started to change around during the leadup to the war in Ukraine. He foiled Putin at every turn, announcing ahead of time what their plans were. It was great to watch. He rounded up NATO and as many allies as possible to prepare for the start of hostilities. None of the "go it alone" route. Biden in one swoop made America the leader of the free world again, and established a precedence on what China can expect if they decide to attack Taiwan. Brilliantly done. That is the Dark Brandon energy that I love to see, and there has been a decent amount of it ever since the start of the war.

I don't know what the Babylon Bee is. I'm assuming it's some sort of super liberal news site. I've never gone there as far as I know.
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Re: Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby OldmanFCSA on Mon May 08, 2023 8:10 am

Markemp wrote:Well, I did say AMA.


As a long-term member of the AMA, I feel most AMA members would disagree with your position.


Long Live the AMA, ........................... the American Motorcyclist Association.

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Re: Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby Jackpine Savage on Mon May 08, 2023 8:30 am

Good grief, you definitely live in an alternate reality, or you are just pulling our leg.

Masterful diplomacy would have prevented the war and tens of thousands of lives lost. Democrats are antiwar, until they're not I guess, more hypocrisy. Now we and Europe are depleting our stockpile of weapons, not sure how that will intimidate China. China stepped into the Middle East and made peace between the Saudis and Iran, protecting their oil supply. China is now attempting to do the same between Russia and Ukraine. The dollar is in the process of losing its reserve currency status.

The southern border is a disaster and getting worse.

I do not see any competence whatsoever from Biden.

You should really check out the Babylon Bee, I think it is a better source of news than what you are getting.
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Re: Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby Holland&Holland on Mon May 08, 2023 12:52 pm

Markemp wrote:
daleamn wrote:We REGULARLY get confronted with folks claiming to be stanch 2nd Amendment supporters, many times touting their firearms expertise and proficiency that then come out and say stuff like "But I have to say I support more gun control because..."

Does anybody have an example of the opposite? There probably is one out there SOMEWHERE and if anybody has run across one could you post a link?
What I'm talking about is somebody saying something like "I definitely support stricter laws concerning guns but I can't support THIS particular gun law."
It would cheer me up a bit to think some on the other side would do this once in a while just to show they were giving some thought rather than just knee jerk reactions.


Ok, this probably isn't my brightest decision, but since you asked nicely, I figured I can answer your question. I'm just here lurking for cheap ammo and interesting guns, but I guess I can dabble a bit on the political side.

I'm a registered democrat. I think Biden has been doing a good job, especially the master class of diplomacy leading up to the Ukraine war. It felt great to watch professional statesmen do their jobs. He actually had an infrastructure week that delivered a ton of benefits to the country, not just a phrase used to distract from the latest scandal.

I do support more restrictions on owning firearms, but there are some particular gun laws I don't support. For example, bans on semi-auto rifles is too far for me, but I do support some restrictions. Enhanced background checks (as has been discussed on this board) are fine to me, as well as red flag laws. I would consider an age limit for semi-auto rifles like 21, although the devil is in the details for that one. I'm also on the fence about licensing for some guns. I also support bans for people convicted of domestic violence, until their terms of probation are complete. Plus 5 years.

Literally everything above has caveats, but it's tough to keep this succinct without the whole post being pedantic. Like the ban for domestic violence. Maybe I would support bird guns, or they can have a range where they check their guns in/out for target shooting at the range. Who knows? It depends on the specifics, and I'd listen to the experts discuss the pros and cons to details like this. Maybe I'd be willing to compromise on something I think is just a nice to have in order to get something I really want (national carry licenses, removing suppressors from NFA, stuff like that).

I have a lot of friends who are politically in the same boat as me. I do know some people who are on the extremes of banning firearms of course. Overall the breakdown on what my friends overall will support breaks down similarly to America in general. Some want all guns banned, some want absolutely no restrictions at all, but the majority are for some limitations. I don't think that the democratic party as a whole doesn't really wants to ban guns. I see what happened to the GOP when Roe v Wade was overturned, and I think the democratic leadership realizes they don't want to be the dog that catches the car too. It's great to fund raise on but be wary of having the most extreme get their way.

You know what I think the biggest problem is? All the divisiveness. This site doesn't do a lot to listen, and I think it's a damn shame. It's not welcoming. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only democrat here, but you'd have to have pretty thick skin to want to stay here and participate when you're called a communist every day. Yes, some democrats are communists, but the vast majority aren't. Just like some members of the GOP are Nazis and think January 6th was just some "tourists" taking a self-guided tour. But we're all just people trying to take care of our friends and families. That's just my time on the soapbox, and I'm probably better of talking to a therapist about it than putting it out there, but as long as I have your attention... :)

So yah, that's where I sit. Proud veteran, capitalist, liberal "gun grabber" who just wants to shoot a deer and pheasant every now and then. I hope this answers your question, so I guess... AMA?


Fair enough. That said, as you stated there are people in your party who do want to end the private ownership of guns. I firmly believe that there are many more freedoms that they want to take away as well. You state that this site with, I dunno, maybe 20 regular posters is divisive. What do you and your friends do to not be divisive? If one were to look at what occurs at the state government level, or the liberal city government level??? You don't see that as divisive? And that is were our lives are being effected each and every day.

So hear it is, you can keep kicking the dog, eventually it will bite you. Is the dog divisive? I suppose but who made it that way?
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Re: Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby Markemp on Mon May 08, 2023 1:56 pm

Holland&Holland wrote:Fair enough. That said, as you stated there are people in your party who do want to end the private ownership of guns. I firmly believe that there are many more freedoms that they want to take away as well. You state that this site with, I dunno, maybe 20 regular posters is divisive. What do you and your friends do to not be divisive? If one were to look at what occurs at the state government level, or the liberal city government level??? You don't see that as divisive? And that is were our lives are being effected each and every day.

So hear it is, you can keep kicking the dog, eventually it will bite you. Is the dog divisive? I suppose but who made it that way?


Ooof.. that is a lot of questions. :)

I disagree with some of my friends and family all the time, but we generally do it without the name calling. Those who want to take away my semi-autos don't call me fascist, and I don't call them communists. I don't think they are trying to take away my freedoms. We just have different ideas on what reasonable regulations entail. Putting people into "us vs them" buckets doesn't allow for any nuance in a discussion. There are probably a bunch of topics we agree 100% on, like the decline in quality of fast food, the misuse of the word "literally" by millennials, or the general uselessness of a 1911, especially when compared to a proper handgun like a Glock 19. But if you disagree with me on the benefits of subsidies for electric vehicles, it doesn't make me a communist, just like your support for subsidies for oil exploration and ranching on public lands doesn't make you a Nazi*. Some of my friends do talk like that, and I push back on them when they do. It doesn't help. In fact it's outright harmful.

There are people who benefit from us calling each other names and trying to boil everything down to black and white. To put everyone into a bucket. They generally aren't Americans and don't have America's best interest in mind when they do that. When the end result is an attempt to overthrow the legitimate government of the United States, it's a huge problem. And the divisiveness is the problem. Let people vote and respect the outcomes.

For example, you say that "they" want to "take away freedoms." Are they? Can you give some examples of the freedoms they want to take away? Do you think I'm trying to take your freedoms away?

* Please note that I have no idea what your positions are on any of these topics, and am just using general right vs left fund-raising points. Unless you actually like 1911s, in which case I yield, as there is no accounting for taste sometimes. :D
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Re: Do the gun grabbers ever go against their narrative?

Postby crbutler on Mon May 08, 2023 2:43 pm

Well, I guess that’s a way to liven this place up!

I don’t disagree that there are some reasonable democrats out there.

But to imply that the divisiveness is mostly one sided is farcical. The democrats in the 50’s and 60’s were pretty willing to tolerate differences under their big tent. So was the GOP then.

As to gun rights, the left has gotten what they sowed with regards to the opposition they have received. A number of pro gun folks gave up something in return for being seen as reasonable in the past, and all it did was create a moving field.

Did the GCA of 1934 really make any difference in safety?

How about the Saturday night special laws?

How about the background checks?

There are some issues that really don’t pertain to me re gun rights that I could agree with… if I felt that it was actually for safety, and that it would be the end of it, and it was logical.

You want to make owning a gun be an older set point responsibility? Ok. The biologic basis is that the juvenile mind is not developed enough for that right… ok.

So they should not drive (kills more than guns…), vote, be liable for the draft, sign contracts, own real property, etc.

One could form a logical and legal basis for it… but neither side is willing to be fully buying in of the logic.
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