"Freedom of Religion" or "Freedom FROM Religion"

[mattxd]

mods move if you want

I ran across this today and thought that I'd share. this father gives me a little hope that more people then we think get it when it comes to gun control. while we can not count on them the spread the message they are open to our message and in the privacy of the voting booth they will uphold our founding fathers' values. How do we become as good as the Brady bunch when it comes to convincing people that their laws will effect them?
http://www.linkedin.com/groupAnswers?viewQuestionAndAnswers=&discussionID=2930832&gid=1187577&trk=EML_anet_qa_ttle-0Ot79xs2RVr6JBpnsJt7dBpSBA

"Freedom of Religion" or "Freedom FROM Religion"

(from a Heritage Foundation email)

On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton , Colorado , was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful.

They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out f or answers.

"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart.

"In the days tha t followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent.

I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy -- it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best.



Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!
Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational
Systems for most of our nation's history.. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence.. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.

"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools.. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your
Own heart before casting the first stone!

My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution...

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that expressly prohibits the United States Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion" or that prohibit the free exercise of religion...


Have we totally mismanaged the intention and significance of this in the US?

[White Horseradish]

I'm sorry, the logic of this escapes me completely. Is he saying that having group prayers at school would prevent school shootings? ( I say "group" because there is no way to ban private prayer anywhere, school or not.)

[DeanC]

I say ban government schools.

[hammAR]

I say ban government schools.

.......

...then hang the lawyers..............

[nyffman]

I'm sorry, the logic of this escapes me completely. Is he saying that having group prayers at school would prevent school shootings? ( I say "group" because there is no way to ban private prayer anywhere, school or not.)

Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational

I didn't read anyhwhere in that short article that he was interested in actions(prayers) as much as he was concerned about the attitudes that have been affecting the emotional and spiritual development of childeren.

[Holland&Holland]

I'm sorry, the logic of this escapes me completely. Is he saying that having group prayers at school would prevent school shootings? ( I say "group" because there is no way to ban private prayer anywhere, school or not.)

Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational

I didn't read anyhwhere in that short article that he was interested in actions(prayers) as much as he was concerned about the attitudes that have been affecting the emotional and spiritual development of childeren.

So all children should then be required to subcribe to a set of religious beliefs that are to be taught in school regardless of how a parent chooses to raise their child? Sounds like England Circa 1600's to me.

Or am I not getting the point?

[justaguy]

I say ban government schools.

[nyffman]

I'm sorry, the logic of this escapes me completely. Is he saying that having group prayers at school would prevent school shootings? ( I say "group" because there is no way to ban private prayer anywhere, school or not.)

Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational

I didn't read anyhwhere in that short article that he was interested in actions(prayers) as much as he was concerned about the attitudes that have been affecting the emotional and spiritual development of childeren.

So all children should then be required to subcribe to a set of religious beliefs that are to be taught in school regardless of how a parent chooses to raise their child? Sounds like England Circa 1600's to me.

Or am I not getting the point?

Where did I say that children should be required to do anything? Why do you make the jump to everything emanating from schools and by extension, govt. in most cases? Yes, you aren't getting the point. Maybe it's because I'm not the best at communicating it. I do believe that we all have a spiritual aspect that needs to be excercised similar to that of your physical body. This isn't being done and we are seeing the result. I still believe that parents have the primary responsibility for their own children, not the state. Disagree with that if you like. It's only an opinion, and one that also seems to be fading with the past in the wonderful age of progressivism.

[Holland&Holland]

I guess I am just trying to understand his point. He seems to be saying that if prayer was part of the school program then the shooting would not have occured. Nyffman I understand your point about needing to exercise one's spiritual component however as we all do this in different ways I do not understand what the lawmakers that the author was accusing could have done differently to prevent this tradgedy.

[ex-LT]

I guess I am just trying to understand his point. He seems to be saying that if prayer was part of the school program then the shooting would not have occured. Nyffman I understand your point about needing to exercise one's spiritual component however as we all do this in different ways I do not understand what the lawmakers that the author was accusing could have done differently to prevent this tradgedy.

I interpreted his remarks as being 'the shooting occurred because society has diminished the role of spirituality and/or religion', but maybe that's just me.

[nyffman]

Yeah, I hear you. I guess I've always believed that the law of physics or whatever it is that says something to the effect that the natural tendency is for things to progress from a state of order to one of less order or more disorder, second law of thermodynamics and all that. In some strange way, I think this also works in societies. And, reading into the original premise of this thread, for a long time we have had laws written that remove this effort to maintain the order, so we continue the natural course toward disorder. The laws giving freedom "from" religion are replacing the original laws that gave freedom "of" religion. So, whether you agree with them or not, religions, even radical muslim religions, preserve some sort of order which we are now being freed from. For good or bad, time may tell. I just feel that it is a bad change.

[jgalt]

I guess I am just trying to understand his point. He seems to be saying that if prayer was part of the school program then the shooting would not have occured. Nyffman I understand your point about needing to exercise one's spiritual component however as we all do this in different ways I do not understand what the lawmakers that the author was accusing could have done differently to prevent this tradgedy.

I don't believe the father - or Nyffman (please correct me if I'm wrong) - is saying that prayer in schools should be scheduled / mandated / sponsored / etc in any public school, but rather that there should not be any prohibitions against like-minded students getting together during non-class times - before, during, or after school hours - to pray to the God of their choosing, in any manner of their choosing. This is freedom of religion and freedom of association as it was intended by the Framers of our Constitution.

I don't know if there are actually laws banning this type of behavior in public schools right now, but I do know that prayer, or any serious discussions of faith, religion, or God are (at the very least) strongly discouraged. This is the government-sponsored marginalization of the belief systems of a very large number of children, and it is unacceptable. I believe this is what the father finds so objectionable, and he is entirely justified in his objections.

There is a huge difference between banning the teaching or advocacy of any particular religion by the government, i.e in a government school, and the suppression of freedom of conscience and expression by the government. The former is right & proper, the latter is an egregious abuse of power.

Having said all that, I'm 110% with DeanC - ban government schools altogether. Of course, as someone who ascribes to the main tenets of Rand's philosophy of Objectivism (my sig line is from Atlas Shrugged), this shouldn't really come as a surprise...

[Holland&Holland]

Yeah, I hear you. I guess I've always believed that the law of physics or whatever it is that says something to the effect that the natural tendency is for things to progress from a state of order to one of less order or more disorder, second law of thermodynamics and all that. In some strange way, I think this also works in societies. And, reading into the original premise of this thread, for a long time we have had laws written that remove this effort to maintain the order, so we continue the natural course toward disorder. The laws giving freedom "from" religion are replacing the original laws that gave freedom "of" religion. So, whether you agree with them or not, religions, even radical muslim religions, preserve some sort of order which we are now being freed from. For good or bad, time may tell. I just feel that it is a bad change.

Breaking out the 2nd law of thermodynamics. I like it!

I can appretiate that line of thinking and I could see the corralation you refer to. Interesting application of physics.

[Wadero]

I say ban government schools.

+1

[Ironbear]

I don't know if there are actually laws banning this type of behavior in public schools right now, but I do know that prayer, or any serious discussions of faith, religion, or God are (at the very least) strongly discouraged. This is the government-sponsored marginalization of the belief systems of a very large number of children, and it is unacceptable. I believe this is what the father finds so objectionable, and he is entirely justified in his objections.

The students have fairly broad latitude in what they do along those lines, it is the teachers and administrators that have to be more circumspect. Teaching about religion is perfectly legitimate and there are court cases to support this, and well-established guidelines on how to do it. That being said, that doesn't stop an administrator or parent who doesn't know or care what the law says, from raising a ruckus; and I think a lot of teachers just avoid the controversy.

Personally I think what the father is getting at, is with the rise of the relativism of postmodernism, the teaching of morals was abandoned; as inflicting any moral viewpoint, on the poor tykes, is making judgments of "right" and "wrong" and is "religious" or "oppressive" or whatever. As (I think) Thomas Jefferson said, if you educate a man in mind but not morals, you create a menace to society. The resulting menace was duly noted by society, which then set out to control it, not at source, but after the fact, with restrictive laws. Liberty, as it happens, requires moral restraint. People like the freedom of no moral restraints, but don't like the results. The father's comments to the legislators were to point out that making more laws, was hammering corks into leaky spots, while ignoring the fact that the dike is structurally unsound.

Having said all that, I'm 110% with DeanC - ban government schools altogether.

I think that would be a good start, but I am not sure how much good it would do, if the present paradigm of how we do school doesn't change as well.