ASP batons

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Re: ASP batons

Postby Squib Joe on Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:09 am

user842 wrote:First off, your cousin needs to realize that expandable batons ARE NOT "non-lethal", they are "less-lethal". You can still easily kill someone with a baton, break brones, or cause other serious, permanent injuries. It's an important distinction, and consideration.


+1

Personally, if I were confronted with somebody (other than an LEO) with a baton of any kind, I would consider it a threat of death or great bodily harm and would be defending myself with my firearm.

With the number of permit holders in the state that feel as I do, your cousin really needs to understand this
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Re: ASP batons

Postby Z201 on Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:36 am

I could not agree more with user842 on this subject. If someone wanted to have a LESS-LETHAL option, I would suggest getting a taser. There are plenty of civilian models available at most larger firearm dealers (i.e. Bill’s Gunshop) that would be a much better alternative to a baton. In over a decade as a police officer, I have used my baton only to break windows and scare animals. There are serious liability issues with the use of a baton, especially as a civilian. This does not even address the legality if someone could even justify deploying such a weapon, except when deadly force would be authorized under MN Statutes. And even then, why? I would argue that even with good intentions, the use of a baton as even an intimidation tactic would at a minimum put the user at risk with being charged with 2nd Degree Assault and/or Felony Terroristic Threats (MN§ 609.222; MN§ 609.713). I would strongly advise against carrying a baton, especially when it sounds like they have a PTC/CWP.
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Re: ASP batons

Postby Snowgun on Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:59 pm

So, what i'm getting out of this is that baton carry is the worst of both worlds: you get the law after you as if you were using a lethal weapon like a gun, but without training the baton is ineffective and dangerous.

I'm trying to get a handle on this since I have a ptc and a baton. I thought the idea of a baton would be good in situations where you don't want to or can't carry....
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Re: ASP batons

Postby mitchx3 on Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:26 pm

Snowgun wrote:I'm trying to get a handle on this since I have a ptc and a baton. I thought the idea of a baton would be good in situations where you don't want to or can't carry....


As a civilian I suggest shovels to other civilians. You get better reach, it's primarily a non-weapon, high-end models go for 20-30$ at major less-lethal retailers (Menards Home Despot) and they do double duty for planting gardens and burying things.
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Re: ASP batons

Postby Bessy on Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:30 pm

Snowgun wrote:So, what i'm getting out of this is that baton carry is the worst of both worlds: you get the law after you as if you were using a lethal weapon like a gun, but without training the baton is ineffective and dangerous.

I'm trying to get a handle on this since I have a ptc and a baton. I thought the idea of a baton would be good in situations where you don't want to or can't carry....



I would never carry a baton and a gun, or a taser and a gun, for legal reasons alone. Let's say heaven forbid you do happen to get into a lethal force encounter and end up shooting someone in self defense. You will have criminal laywers asking you why didn't you use the taser instead. It's clearly because you are blood thirsty murder with an itchy trigger finger. Add to that the civil suit angle aftermath and it's even more of a mess.
I'm having trouble of thinking of an application where the taser/baton would be your best option. Most of those are better covered by either running like hell or worst case scenario using your gun. That's the advantage of being not a cop. I can run like hell, and let the pros deal with it. I definitely see the advantage for the police carrying these devices, just not for me.
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Re: ASP batons

Postby Snowgun on Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:05 pm

Bessy wrote:
Snowgun wrote:So, what i'm getting out of this is that baton carry is the worst of both worlds: you get the law after you as if you were using a lethal weapon like a gun, but without training the baton is ineffective and dangerous.

I'm trying to get a handle on this since I have a ptc and a baton. I thought the idea of a baton would be good in situations where you don't want to or can't carry....



I would never carry a baton and a gun, or a taser and a gun, for legal reasons alone. Let's say heaven forbid you do happen to get into a lethal force encounter and end up shooting someone in self defense. You will have criminal laywers asking you why didn't you use the taser instead. It's clearly because you are blood thirsty murder with an itchy trigger finger. Add to that the civil suit angle aftermath and it's even more of a mess.
I'm having trouble of thinking of an application where the taser/baton would be your best option. Most of those are better covered by either running like hell or worst case scenario using your gun. That's the advantage of being not a cop. I can run like hell, and let the pros deal with it. I definitely see the advantage for the police carrying these devices, just not for me.


Thats a good point....But I was referring to the times where I am not carrying my gun but carrying a baton. I just don't feel that mace or a taser is gonna take care of the situation if the guy is determined/jacked up....however I feel with a baton I can choose to use less than lethal force yet be sure that I can stop the attacker.

So, if I catch this right, using or brandishing a baton is subject to the same legal considerations as using or brandishing your carry? That's stupid!
Victory is reserved for those who are willing to pay its price. - Sun Tzu

The Way is in training... Do nothing which is not of value. - Miyamato Musashi

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Re: ASP batons

Postby FJ540 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:08 am

Not to start anything here, but if they're jacked up a baton ain't gonna cut it. In fact, I don't think a baton is a suitable self defense weapon for a few reasons:

Having had the training from an ASP certified instructor (threw out my asp card a few years back), I can tell you that even being proficient with it is a sorry replacement for being armed. The chances of someone mistaking it for drawing a knife just prior to being able to deploy it is a liability. It takes too much time to present, and then you have to hope you have room to open it, the clip isn't being finicky that day, and you have room and time to then swing. It's simply not a fast response weapon - too many variables and motions needed to present it.

You're also entirely too close to the opponent IMO, to effectively use one. Say they do think its a knife, they don't have a gun, but they do have something pointy or even blunt to fight back with - you swing a club, they stick you or thunk you back. That's a bad situation to be in. I'm with the GTFOOT crowd on this one. While that black stick might be intimidating to some, others will see it as a challenge to get it away from you and use it against you. So if you don't manage to whack them in the head on the first strike (a lethal force action), you're now within grappling range and life could suck very badly for you in short order.

I'm certainly not trying to say having a gun would solve all these problems, but it does allow you more space while remaining effective. You're stuck at 4.5' or less with a 26" baton. I don't even stand that close to strangers half the time.
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Re: ASP batons

Postby cobb on Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:31 am

user842 wrote:Wikipedia, a reliable and infallible interweb resource,...

Now you lose some credibility when you start saying things like that.
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Re: ASP batons

Postby Paul on Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:35 am

Snowgun wrote:I just don't feel that mace or a taser is gonna take care of the situation if the guy is determined/jacked up....however I feel with a baton I can choose to use less than lethal force yet be sure that I can stop the attacker.


I think you overestimate the batons effectiveness, or perhaps underestimate the effectiveness of the Taser. If you are truly dealing with a 'jacked up' person, they can take numerous blows with a baton, even break bones, and not feel any pain. The Taser causes strong involuntary muscle contractions, which temporarily incapacitates the subject for a brief period of time. While Tasers are not 100% effective, in the situation you describe I think they would be more appropriate than an expandable baton.
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Re: ASP batons

Postby Paul on Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:36 am

cobb wrote:
user842 wrote:Wikipedia, a reliable and infallible interweb resource,...

Now you lose some credibility when you start saying things like that.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

:lol:
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Re: ASP batons

Postby cobb on Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:43 am

No sarcasm intended, using Wikipedia as a source to prove a point will weaken it. On this very forum we had this debate and someone linked to Wikipedia to prove their point. Wikipedia was proven wrong and those involved in that debate agreed Wikipedia was wrong after a few basic facts were verified and proven/dis-proven.

I am just saying that Wikipedia is not a solid resource to use to support an opinion.
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Re: ASP batons

Postby Paul on Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:53 am

cobb wrote:No sarcasm intended, using Wikipedia as a source to prove a point will weaken it. On this very forum we had this debate and someone linked to Wikipedia to prove their point. Wikipedia was proven wrong and those involved in that debate agreed Wikipedia was wrong after a few basic facts were verified and proven/dis-proven.

I am just saying that Wikipedia is not a solid resource to use to support an opinion.


I get that, which is why my sarcasm link was in reference to "Wikipedia, a reliable and infallible interweb resource". I figured most knew that I wasn't giving much credibility to what Wikipedia had to say based on my attempt at humor, knocking Wikipedia in my initial post where I used it as a reference. Especially in the context of the entire sentence, which did not get copied/pasted, "Wikipedia, a reliable and infallible interweb resource, lumps non-lethal and less-lethal into one category". The fact that they categorize non-lethal and less-lethal in the same category somewhat contradicts itself.

Either way, I would definitely agree that Wikipedia, in general, is not a reliable resource. However, in the context of this conversation where people were incorrectly using non-lethal and less-lethal interchangeably, the Wikipedia article, as it was written, goes along to prove my point that I was trying to make. Some things that are classified as non-lethal, could still cause death.
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Re: ASP batons

Postby cobb on Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:20 am

user842 wrote:
cobb wrote:No sarcasm intended, using Wikipedia as a source to prove a point will weaken it. On this very forum we had this debate and someone linked to Wikipedia to prove their point. Wikipedia was proven wrong and those involved in that debate agreed Wikipedia was wrong after a few basic facts were verified and proven/dis-proven.

I am just saying that Wikipedia is not a solid resource to use to support an opinion.


I get that, which is why my sarcasm link was in reference to "Wikipedia, a reliable and infallible interweb resource". I figured most knew that I wasn't giving much credibility to what Wikipedia had to say based on my attempt at humor, knocking Wikipedia in my initial post where I used it as a reference. Especially in the context of the entire sentence, which did not get copied/pasted, "Wikipedia, a reliable and infallible interweb resource, lumps non-lethal and less-lethal into one category". The fact that they categorize non-lethal and less-lethal in the same category somewhat contradicts itself.

Either way, I would definitely agree that Wikipedia, in general, is not a reliable resource. However, in the context of this conversation where people were incorrectly using non-lethal and less-lethal interchangeably, the Wikipedia article, as it was written, goes along to prove my point that I was trying to make. Some things that are classified as non-lethal, could still cause death.

Sorry, haven't finished my first cup of coffee yet this morning and you had me going there for a second. :lol:
Not saying not to use Wikipedia to find information, but some read the info and assume it must be true because it,,,well, it says that on Wikipedia. :roll:
Back on topic, I have no opinion on batons (just Wikapedia).
Last edited by cobb on Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ASP batons

Postby Paul on Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:22 am

Hopefully you have Folgers in your cup.

Image

:cheers:
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Re: ASP batons

Postby Erik_Pakieser on Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:59 am

I posted this in another forum, during a discussion about ASP batons...I hope it's useful for this thread. Some of you who have taken my classes have probably heard this story.

The closest I ever came to a line of duty shooting involved an event where I was attacked by an unarmed subject I could not physically control. This happened in May of 1995.

I was working overtime at a stop-and-rob in a neighborhood most people avoid. The subject parked his car on the curb, blocking access to the gas pumps (a common problem) and I asked him to move it.

He responded with a string of obssceneties and racial ephitets. I then gave him the option of a) leaving or b) being arrested. He got into the car and attempted to run me over. Fortunately, I was able to jump out of the way, and got the plate number. I went inside to call a supervisor and start my report so we could get an arrest warrant.

As I was writing up my notes in the backroom, the store manager told me that the guy was back in the store (he must have wanted that bottle of OE 800 pretty bad). I went out to arrest him, and he resisted, so I gave him a shot of OC Pepper Foam (issued at the time - the problem with this product is that when sprayed, the subject instinctively wipes it off, and then when you go hands on, you get contaminated). He charged me and we began to grapple. At this point the nozzle broke off my OC, rendering it useless.

By that time, we were in the lot just outside the front door. I was able to get one arm into a hammerlock and was about to cuff him when another subject (we never identified or caught this guy) stepped out of nowhere and grabbed my holstered gun. I immediately let go of the first subject to retain my gun and spun away from the gun grabber's grip.

As the grabber ran away from me, I pivoted back towards my original subject just in time to see his fist collide with my left eye, breaking my glasses, closing the eye, and fracturing my orbital bone. I saw an explosion of stars, just like in a Bugs Bunny cartoon.

Viewing the security camera footage later, I saw myself spin about 180 degrees then bounce back, draw my pistol, and command him to the ground. He fled across the street and I put out a Signal 13 (HELP) call.

The situation now became a roller coaster up and down the force continuum (this is a good example of why continuum-based force training is being replaced). He stopped and confronted me with empty hands, so I reholstered my gun and tried to subdue him with my ASP, which collapsed the first time I hit him (which is why I don't like the ASP). He then moved to his car and tried to get something from it by reaching in the window, which led me to draw my gun again. When he came out with empty hands, I went back to the baton, which really didn't seem to be doing much good. I could keep him off me, but not subdue him.

He would not comply with any commands and kept dropping into a boxing stance. We later found out he was a Golden Gloves boxer (and, BTW, had done time for 2nd degree murder as a juvenille).

Finally, he ran across the street and up an alley. At that point, I figured, "I have his car, we'll get a warrant." Then all of the sudden he came charging back towards me. I tried to increase my reactionary gap by moving behind a car parked in the driveway of a nearby house, but that backfired because now I was trapped between the retaining wall of the driveway, the garage, and the suspect.

He kept coming at me, and I rapidly evaluated my situation. I was blind in one eye, bloody, contaminated with the OC, and feeling dizzy. If he incapacitated me, I could very easily be disarmed and shot. I made my decision to shoot, drew my gun, and issued a final challenge. We were about 15' apart.

What saved his life was the arrival of the two biggest cops in the department, responding to my help call. They bulldogged him from behind and got him cuffed.

If you think that would have been the end of it, you need to spend more time in the 'hood. "Concerned citizens" were stopping in the middle of the street, jumping out of their cars, and forming a mob of about a hundred people, yelling anti-police and other threats. We started making additional arrests and kept the backup cars coming. The mob dispersed when we deployed a party ball on them.

Once the dust settled, I made a point of telling the backup officers the subject might need medical attention for my baton work. They responded by asking if I was okay, and that's when my adrenaline dropped and I realized the extent of my injuries. I went to the hospital in an ambulance.

This incident is still relevant to me today. I learned a lot from it, the hard way, but I also am happy to have survived.

Stuff I learned:

- I should have recognized the potential for violence from our initial contact. Frankly, I moved on him without calling for backup because I was pissed off. It was a bad decision and a hard lesson learned.

- Just because someone is not armed does not mean they are not dangerous.

- The ASP is easy to carry but the trade-off is it's less effective. I had recently transitioned from the straight baton to the ASP with no real training (at that time, the assumption was that the ASP was used just like any other baton). When I later moved on to another agency and got some proper training on the ASP techniques I realized I was using it incorrectly in this encounter.

- Officers need to be trained in breaking down subjects they cannot control, holding their ground, and taking hits. To this day, I am convinced that my will to survive and the fact this was not the first time I went hands-on with a bad guy strongly contributed to my survival.

- You have to keep your head on a swivel and be aware of bystanders. The good samaratan who grabbed my gun, as far as we could tell, had no connection to the subject; nonetheless he felt compelled to participate in his crime at the spur of the moment.

The subject pled guilty to assault and battery. While awaiting sentencing, he committed a carjacking and rape and landed an additional sentence. I think he wound up with around ten years, which is not a lot considering he was still on parole for the murder.

I got six weeks light duty, a fractured orbit, broken glasses and ten stitches. To this day I periodically have problems with my left eye.

An interesting sidebar to this: this incident contributed to my switching to 9mm as my caliber of choice. At the time, I carried a Smith & Wesson 645 on duty and a .38 Bodyguard off duty/backup. While awaiting trial, the subject put a hit out on me and the City Attorney declined to charge him for it because it was a "third party" threat. My 645 was tough to conceal and my Bodyguard seemed like not enough gun for a credible threat, so I bought myself a 3914 for off-duty. I discovered I shot the 9mm better than the .45, and I carried that gun until 2008, when I retired it and started carrying the M&P9L and 9c.

This post turned out longer than I had originally intended. I hope that my sharing this experience is useful to everyone.


A summary, in response to the ASP question:

The ASP (IMHO) is better designed for carrying than actual use. The fine people at ASP have developed specific techniques with their product which are different than those you would employ with a straight baton.

Using the ASP requires additional, specific training.

ASPs tend to collapse when used (I have seen this happen many times in incidents other than mine; ask any cop who's used one on a subject).
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